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Poll

Votes: 7

On nations and ethic groups

Author:

First Incision

Topic:

Diaries

Posted:

Sep 06, 2002

Comments:

There has been some recent debate on this site concerning what constitutes a nation and an ethnic group. I have come to a conclusion.

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Mr. Tkatchev has repeatedly stated that African-Americans are a distinct nation within the United States. That has never seemed right with me. Mr. Nathan has claimed that one's nationality is defined by one's passport. That seems to me like a weak distinction.

It is indisputable that most Black Americans have different cultural norms than White Americans. I would say this defines two ethnicities, or maybe just two cultures.

I say that your nationality is defined by pledging allegiance to a governmental and military entity. For this reason, I say that Blacks are not a separate nationality.

A true existance of dual nationalities within the USA is what led to our civil war.

	As long as it wasn't ordered (none / 0) (#1)
	by PotatoError on Fri Sep 6th, 2002 at 07:03:41 PM PST

	We can safely assume it wasn't ordered, even though many people will argue that much of it is to do with the general scheme anyway, and I guess that anything more than that would simply lead to utter chaos. So yes, I am willing to agree. <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

	dear mr Incision sir (none / 0) (#2)
	by nathan on Sat Sep 7th, 2002 at 05:43:23 PM PST

	I recall saying that there was a lot more to national identity than merely one's passport. Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	Sorry (none / 0) (#3)
	by First Incision on Sat Sep 7th, 2002 at 07:11:18 PM PST

	School is back in session, and I think I am stuck in speed-reading mode. I apologize. I apparently don't know the difference between "ethic" and "ethnic" either. _ _ Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

	so, to restate (none / 0) (#4)
	by nathan on Sat Sep 7th, 2002 at 08:11:16 PM PST

	Ethnic, as you've defined it, overlaps with what Mr Tkatchev described as 'nationality.' I hope you realise you've almost totally conceded his point. For the record, he was probably using 'nation' the same way as do Jews who consider themselves 'a nation in exile,' rather than merely members of 'an ethnic group [among many.]' It makes a lot of sense to use the term 'nationality' to describe Hungarians in Romania, Swedes in Finland, Chinese in Indonesia, and so forth. A Chinese person living in Indonesia might well considers himself culturally and racially Chinese, rather than Indonesian by virtue of his passport. In that sense, black people in America are as much 'a nation apart' as they are 'one colour in the glorious democratic melting pot.' As usual, politicised language expresses an agenda, no? Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	I'm sorry. (none / 0) (#5)
	by First Incision on Sat Sep 7th, 2002 at 09:56:06 PM PST

	I'm really not following you. I might have to concede all points. I am on the verge of admitting that I have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about. That makes one of us an idiot, and I'm not quite sure which one it is. _ _ Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

	let's start with this (none / 0) (#6)
	by nathan on Mon Sep 9th, 2002 at 07:25:50 AM PST

	It makes a lot of sense to use the term 'nationality' to describe Hungarians in Romania, Swedes in Finland, Chinese in Indonesia, and so forth. A Chinese person living in Indonesia might well considers himself culturally and racially Chinese, rather than Indonesian by virtue of his passport. Care to comment on this part? Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	I love Indonesia. (none / 0) (#7)
	by because it isnt on Mon Sep 9th, 2002 at 11:33:59 AM PST

	Chinks wearing camel-jockey turbans. Did I just say that? Gasp, how terribly racist of me! Shocking! adequacy.org -- because it isn't

	what must you think (none / 0) (#8)
	by nathan on Tue Sep 10th, 2002 at 06:08:07 AM PST

	Of Amritsar in the Punjab? Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	I wouldn't know, (none / 0) (#12)
	by because it isnt on Tue Sep 10th, 2002 at 01:14:05 PM PST

	the closest I came to India was E. M. Forster. adequacy.org -- because it isn't

	OK (none / 0) (#9)
	by First Incision on Tue Sep 10th, 2002 at 06:47:13 AM PST

	I have to admit that I don't know much about any of these groups. But I would be willing to guess that Chinese in Indonesia are have a very different ethnic situation than Blacks in America. I assume that these Chinese have cultural norms based on a combination of Chinese and Indonesian culture. American Black culture stems from a larger American culture; it has never seemed to me to have any elements of an African culture. I would also assume that Indonesian Chinese have strong family connections to their specific homeland nation. Most American Blacks know very little, if anything, of their African origins, and thus any connection to the large polyethnic continent of Africa is vague. Again, all of this is based on my assumptions of Chinese in Indonesia, but I can imagine them drawing on a nationalism in ways that African-Americans do not. _ _ Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

	point taken. (none / 0) (#10)
	by nathan on Tue Sep 10th, 2002 at 08:56:14 AM PST

	Still, you have to admit that black people in America have been more or less forced to develop a separate (but equal) culture. It kind of went along with the separate drinking fountains. In addition, jazz. Nathan -- Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

	Actually, (none / 0) (#11)
	by tkatchev on Tue Sep 10th, 2002 at 10:28:35 AM PST

	I'd say that the existence of two separate nations is actually the cause of segregation in the first place. -- Peace and much love...

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