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 Wicca - a scientific, Christian approach to the problem

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Jul 12, 2001
 Comments:
These days, it is not uncommon to find young people of all ages, particularly teenage girls rejecting Christianity and turning instead to the ancient Pagan belief system of Wicca (more commonly known as Witchcraft). These youngsters are often confused about their spirituality and find solace in the paganistic rituals of white and black magic. Often enjoying the thrill that comes from being 'different' to everyone else.

These misinformed youths present a very real threat to our society. However there may be a simple solution. But first we need to know what 'Wicca' really means to our teenagers.

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Witchcraft (or Wicca) is a very old belief system, dating back to barbaric pre-Christian European times. It is a belief system based on the forces of nature and of a balance between good and evil. Modern Wiccans eschew much of the pagan side of their religion and often their beliefs amount to little more than a fashion statement. Teenage girls especially find the black clothing, satanic imagery to be 'cool' and 'radical'. I asked some Californian Wiccan teens to explain their beliefs.

Brandi Simmons (15) from Laguna Beach
"Well its like you know, all about like, the forces of nature and stuff".
Debbii Morrison (14) from Garden Grove, Orange County:
"All my friends are into Wicca. We all dress up in black and go hang out at the mall. People look and stare, but they just don't understand us. We're different from normal people. I think they cannot handle that".
Shaniqua Jones (16) from Inglewood, Los Angeles:
"As black teenager I guess I am unusual being into Wicca, but the powers of nature are especially strong for women, and wicca lets me have the freedom to be who I am".

When further questioned about their beliefs, all we could really extract from these teens was that Wicca, unlike other religions had some cool clothes, and was misunderstood by their parents, teachers and the mainstream media.

Fair enough you might think. It seems pretty harmless, these girls enjoy dressing up, and being part of a cool 'clique' that adults don't understand. And I would agree with you, if it were that simple. But some of these girls may well be tampering with real forces of evil way beyond their comprehension. And that is a problem.

Our modern images of Wiccans or Witches (to give them their proper name) comes from TV programs such as 'Bewitched' and 'Sabrina'. Unfortunately there is nothing amusing or comical about witchcraft in the real world. Real world witchcraft involves pure evil. True witches are capable of casting spells, putting the 'evil eye' on people, even (and this is not a joke) flying around on broomsticks. In order to create some of their 'spells' they may have to kill endangered species of plant or animal. Some of these spells involve naked dancing at midnight. Should young teenage girls really be doing these things ?

Some teen Wiccans may not be true witches. They probably simply wear a pentagram and black clothes. I am not interested in these people. But some of these teenagers have become fully-fledged witches, and are practicing their evil from the bedrooms of suburban America. (There is some evidence to suggest that the recent dot-com bomb was engineered by a group of thirteen Wiccan teens in order to win a school investment club competition.)

Now to the solution. In the old days, witches were burned at the stake. This may sound cruel, but America supports the death penalty, and this is simply the safest way we have to deal with the evil of witchcraft - burning ensures that any evil spirits are cleansed by the flames. As an more humane alternative we could use a silver bullet which contrary to popular belief works on witches as well as vampires. Perhaps the safest approach would be to shoot them with a silver bullet after burning them at the stake. (Sure amnesty may not approve of these methods of execution, but then they seem to be very much a pro-criminal organization.)

Then we are left with only one problem. That of how to identify the real witches in our community as opposed to those who are simply wearing the clothes and don't have any real clue about Wicca ?

The solution is simple and as old as the hills. In England many many years ago, Christian leaders discovered that real witches float and can breathe underwater. Obviously normal human beings cannot. These pioneering Christian scientists adapted a piece of technology called a 'Ducking Stool' and created a device that was capable of distinguishing between true Witches and normal human beings.

My suggestion to solving the wiccan problem is simple. We need to install ducking stools in all of our high-school swimming pools. There will be an anonymous box in the entrance to each school, where students can write the names of girls suspected of being Wiccan. Then every Friday, those girls whose names are in the box can be taken to the swimming pool placed on the Ducking Stool, and tested to see if they are truly evil witches. If they are, we can then burn them at the stake.




Wicca (3.00 / 4) (#11)
by bc on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 10:57:43 AM PST
I suppose it depends where wicca is performed?

We all know that wicca is the oldest religion, with a clear and unbroken lineage all the way back to Stonehenge, 3500BC. So in the celtic countries of Europe (Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Brittany in France and Cornwall in England) Wicca is wrapped up in the land and in the culture of the nation and the people. For example, London used to be Londinium in Roman times, and before that it was Lugdunum, from the ancient Wiccan God Lug, God of Bogs. Lug was revered, as Wicca was a ground based religion, people thought the gods lived beneath them, in pits and dark places. They used to sacrifice people to God Lug by throwing them in a bog.

Near where I live is an archaelogical dig where they discovered an ancient celtic hut, from 1000BC or so. Next to the front door, on the left hand side was found a pit, with 500 left elbows in it. Noone has any idea what this was in aid of, but it is a common find among the Celts who spread out from La Tene to the edges of Europe. The ancient religions are unforgiving and evil.

In America it seems to be just a fad though. Why doesn't someone promote the traditional Red Indian religions? Those ones are wrapped up in the land over there, if not with the people. At least it would be better for you than Wiccan.

Now, I grew up in a small village on the East coast of Scotland called Crail. It was a haven of Wiccan and witchcraft - the head of the pagan church in Scotland lived there, and there were also several satanists resident in the village (you probably think I am making this up, but I'm not - Crail is a very odd, old, cliqueish village). These people are actually quite dangerous, and I have read in many Dennis Wheatly books of the evils they get up to.

So I would caution any child of mine from entering into the wiccan church, unless she knew what she was getting herself into.

But if it is just a matter of style, then that seems okay to me. Just be careful you don't get in to deep - the Goddess and the Horned God can be unforgiving.

In short, if you are an American pagan, you are in it for the style and nothing else, and if you are a European one you are ignorant or evil or both.


♥, bc.

Why all this HATE? (1.00 / 1) (#30)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 11:18:07 PM PST
Why do some people automatically assume every other religion is evil? I know plenty of Wiccans who are really nice and wouldn't think of using magick to harm anyone. Unfortuantly their are some bad people out there who claim they are Wiccans without having any idea what Wicca really is. A true Wiccan believes in the Wiccan Rede An' ye harm none do as ye will. They believe in Mother earth and seek to express her in their everyday lives. A true Wiccan doesn't do evil in fact most don't even believe in the devil! Just because they say they are Wiccan doesn't make them one. Does saying your a christian make you a christian? Same with other religions. Saying your a particuler religion does not automatically make you a member of that religion. To be a true wiccan or a true christian you practice by its tenants. Yes some people do evil and call it Wicca but they have no concept of the religion. As for the teenagers that dmg talked to well me being a teenager maybe I can shed a little light on that. Teenagers love to rebel and they view Wicca as rebelllion. Most Wiccans don't go around wearing black robes for example so I wouldn't take what they say at face value... And besides not all Wiccans do magick. Alot of them do because they feel it makes them close to the Divine but not all... Basically what I'm trying to say their are bad "wiccans" as well as bad "christians" . That doesn't make the religion as a whole evil does it? Just cuz their are a couple of bad seeds? Anyway I suggest everyone do some more research and dmg maybe you should talk to some "true" wiccans and you will see they aren't evil. Well most of them anyway... They only seek to get closer to the Divine as do the rest of us. Walk in Light and Love Anna Sirii


Ahhh - TRUE Wiccans... (none / 0) (#36)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 03:21:41 AM PST
dmg must have been talking to the FAKE Wiccans. But how does one tell whether someone is a true Wiccan or not ? It seems quite difficult. I believe it was Wittgenstein who said 'Whereinof I cannot speak - I should remain silent' I suspect dmg should have taken Wittgenstein's advice (even though he was a suspected Nazi)


Wittgenstein or Heidegger? (5.00 / 1) (#54)
by johnny ambiguous on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:54:19 AM PST
Sure you don't have your philosophers mixed? I never heard any rumor that Wittgenstein had Nazi leanings. In fact he felt threatened enough by the rise of Hitler that he fled Austria for Cambridge. Heidegger, on the other hand...that fucker, sheesh.

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net


Getting into my Chevrolet Magic Fire, I drove slowly back to the office. - L. Rosen

You are correct. (none / 0) (#73)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 15th, 2001 at 01:56:15 PM PST
It was Nietsche whose writings were viewed as pro-Nazi.


I think you miss the point... (none / 0) (#76)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 06:18:56 AM PST
Nietzsche, Wittgenstein, and Heidegger were all Germans. Naziism was a movement in Germany, and so since they were part of that culture, it seems perfectly clear that all three were Nazis.


I am now invoking Godwin's law (1.00 / 1) (#77)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 09:51:43 AM PST
This discussion is closed.


Obviously, (none / 0) (#78)
by CaptainZornchugger on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 11:03:01 AM PST
You forgot to read the faq. Please see the answer to the question 'Does this website support Godwin's Law?'



 
That's an interesting timeline, considering... (none / 0) (#80)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:01:50 AM PST
Hitler was 11 years old when Nietzsche died.


And of course, (none / 0) (#82)
by CaptainZornchugger on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 06:04:34 AM PST
Hitler's Nazi party were the first Nazis Germany ever had.

</sarcasm>



 
Wicca was INVENTED. (5.00 / 2) (#75)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 15th, 2001 at 09:05:26 PM PST
>>>We all know that wicca is the oldest religion, with a clear and unbroken lineage all the way back to Stonehenge, 3500BC. So in the celtic countries of Europe (Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Brittany in France and Cornwall in England) Wicca is wrapped up in the land and in the culture of the nation and the people. For example, London used to be Londinium in Roman times, and before that it was Lugdunum, from the ancient Wiccan God Lug, God of Bogs. Lug was revered, as Wicca was a ground based religion, people thought the gods lived beneath them, in pits and dark places. They used to sacrifice people to God Lug by throwing them in a bog.>>>

You are such an idiot. Wicca was INVENTED, let me repeat that, INVENTED about sixty years ago. Wicca in its current for has not existed for more than half a century, and you need to know that.

As for the "Wiccan god" Lug... there's no such thing. Wiccans are duothiestic, and as such any individual gods and goddesses that are worshipped are seen as aspects of the Lord and Lady.

That the Pagan community knows so little about itself sickens me.

Here,
Chuck


 
Lies! Damn Lies! (4.00 / 2) (#12)
by Electric Angst on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 11:08:03 AM PST
This post is totally untrue. While it is constructed in a very convincing manner, the author makes one fatal flaw that this Pagan can instantly recognize, and I will show it to all of you here...

In the article, the author quoted a woman named Shaniqua Jones, from Inglewood, CA. Now, a young lady with a first name like 'Shaniqua' who lives in Inglewood is, most certainly, of African descent. Now, as any Pagan can tell you, there are no Wiccans of African descent. Not a single one. After all, if you were of African descent, would you really want to go around, wearing tacky black robes that are a mockery of your perfect ebony skin, and chant the names of a bunch of European cracker dieties? The answer is, obviously, no, though apparently the author doesn't really know enough about Wicca to avoid such a glaring error...


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

You'll read that years from now and gasp! (1.00 / 3) (#15)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 12:15:03 PM PST
You're kidding right? Did you just say that Black people shouldn't want to try Wicca because they're Black?

I seem to remember you saying this: "Tiger Woods is a black person who won a golf tournament? That's obviously not possible. This author doesn't know what they're talking about. Ask any golf player, a black person has never played golf before. Why would they want to? They're not white!"

God you're dense.


Wow, Sarcasm hit you like a lead pipe... (4.66 / 3) (#16)
by Electric Angst on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 12:31:19 PM PST
Such anger, perhaps you didn't understand the satirical point of my post. Yes, there are black Wiccans. Hell, I've net a few. Still, Wicca is overwhelmingly white (moreso than Professional Golf) and it's no surprise. The strong concentration on "our Celtic heritage" and general concentration on European dieties (you can find Wiccan material on a minor Greek diety like Eris than you could dig up on Eshu, one of the more important dieties in West African Paganism) make for an enviornment that is hardly as accepting of minorities as most Wiccans would themselves like to believe.

Also, when you consider that the primary converting force for Wicca, new-age and occult books, are generally printed and marketed for an audience of young, middle class, white people, than even the meager amount of blacks in Wicca right now are surprising.

So, Wicca is overwhelmingly white. That's a fact, and that's the point I was trying to exaggerate into humor in my previous post...


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

 
A Problem with Wicca (4.40 / 5) (#13)
by Trollaxor on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 11:41:48 AM PST
Is, quite frankly, that is attracts the fringe. Fat chicks with dyed hair and obese men with beards.

Hmm.

Is Wicca at all related to Open Source or Free Software?


Why yes (4.33 / 3) (#17)
by Peter Johnson on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 01:01:47 PM PST
The neopaganism FAQ used to be maintained by noted open source blowhard Eric S. Raymond.
--Peter
Are you adequate?
--Peter
Are you adequate?

No Shit (4.33 / 3) (#20)
by Trollaxor on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 03:27:24 PM PST
Really!

Well there's something that hasn't been written about yet.

Haha. Even if you just lied to me it's still something to write about.


 
If this is true !!! (5.00 / 2) (#35)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 03:19:03 AM PST
Then he has a LOT of explaining to do...


 
believe it or not... (none / 0) (#26)
by motherfuckin spork on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 08:18:53 PM PST
I actually know someone who is Wiccan, is fairly attractive, does not dye her hair, was/is Catholic, and it one of the most intensely spiritualistic people I've ever met. She alone has convinced me that not all Wiccans are as you have described... but a lot of them certaintly are.

I think sometimes its a matter of "Wiccan for the sake of being different" vs. "Wiccan because I see things differently". My friend represents a rarely found open-mindedness to things religous and spiritual. Others seem to be trying to "find themselves" and oft end up failing, looking like fools in the process.

anyway, there you have it


I am not who you think I am.

Yeah, I knew a cute wiccan too (none / 0) (#29)
by Peter Johnson on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 09:31:23 PM PST
In Utah, by the name of Julie. She seemed like a nice person, but I'm afraid I was unable to extract her from the claws of the wiccans.

Now it's too late.

--Peter
Are you adequate?
--Peter
Are you adequate?

 
"intensely spiritual" (none / 0) (#99)
by Victors Monster on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 09:48:45 PM PST
The word "spiritual" has become, like wicca, both a trendy and an ill-defined concept. Perhaps you could clarify exactly what "intense spirituality" constitutes?


 
The goddess is alive, and magic is afoot! (4.33 / 3) (#14)
by Victors Monster on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 11:43:03 AM PST
Why is it that "Wicca" is dominated by 30-year-old D&D players and pallid, homely young women?

I think it has something to do with sexual dissatisfaction. Goddess Bless! God Bless The Freaks! Isis! Isis! Rah rah rah! Normal People Worry Me (and other clever bumper-stickers)


 
Wiccan Misconceptions (2.66 / 3) (#18)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 01:25:33 PM PST
I'm not sure where dmg got his ideas about Wicca, but they are not such evil-seekers as he seems to portray. Referencing a site that dmg links to, there is an essay explaining Wicca and witchcraft. It is far from being an evil religion and is in fact quite in tune with nature and goodness. They don't kill endangered species of plant or animal for spells. I suggest that dmg does more research next time he decides to rant about how good or bad it is.


excuse me, (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 09:12:34 PM PST
but I guess it never ocurred to you that they're so evil they'd lie about it.


so evil they'd lie? (none / 0) (#74)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 15th, 2001 at 08:34:57 PM PST
Yes, so evil that they'd lie. Of course, someone so simplistic can't imagine that it's simply the axiom "Truth is stranger than fiction" put into action. Generally, pagans will tell the truth about their beliefs for one reason. They don't care who believes them or not because they're not out to save the souls of the world.


 
It warms my heart (3.00 / 5) (#21)
by SpaceGhoti on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 04:27:33 PM PST
To see that good, old-fashioned bigotry and closed-mindedness remain firmly bundled with religious ignorance and fanaticism.

I think what amuses me most is to discover how many "Christian" rituals (Transubstantiation, anyone?) were borrowed from other religions of the time (sun worshipers), a tactic proven by Roman conquests. "Your gods aren't true gods. They're really faces of our god."

Very little makes me more sick than people who think they can dictate religion, morality and thought to others who have committed the heinous crime of disagreeing.


A troll's true colors.

Hypocritical much? NC (5.00 / 2) (#87)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:33:46 AM PST



 
What? (3.25 / 4) (#22)
by id10t on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 06:23:33 PM PST
Okay, looks like it's time for dmg to learn a bit. As a Wiccan, I can assure you that we do not "cast the evil eye", "ride broomsticks", and most especially we do not sacrifice any animals in our rituals. Our first belief is known as "The Threefold Law", which tells us that whatever we create, be it joy or sorrow, laughter or pain, is brought back to us threefold. We also follow: An it harm none, do as thou wilt.

As you can see, these two laws alone prevent us from doing as dmg suggests. A practitioner of black magic simply does not last long, and does harm only to herself. We take great care in our daily lives to help those around us, and to help to preserve the environment.

Ours is a religion that is very close to nature, and we revere what we find in the natural world.

Frankly, people like dmg are more dangerous than you might think. Not that it's likely that such laws might be passed, but that this kind of scare mongering and misinformation can cause hysteria and fear among those who know nothing of Wicca and are easily swayed.

Please, dmg, before you post anything like this again, do some real research.


That sounds a bit fundamentalist... (3.20 / 5) (#23)
by bc on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 06:51:46 PM PST
...and even self contradictory. We all know that the Judeo-Christian ethic of `An eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth` is a very primitive and outmoded form of morality. But this wiccan system of `Three eyes for an eye, three teeth for a tooth` seems three times worse!

Wicca has never seemed especially close to nature to me either - most of its practitioners are urban or suburban creatures, who wouldn't know cow shit from squirrel turds.

It irritates me when townies, urban wiccans and so on glorify this myth of nature, the Goddess, and so on. Nature is red in tooth and claw, and if anything we should be damned thankful we are escaping its awful machinations.

The simple fact is we couldn;t survive in nature. We are a tool using species. This isn;t to say I don't enjoy driving through Provence or taking a camping trip to look at wild unblemished scenery, but if I do I make damn sure and take my thermos flask, gas stove, nylon tent, polyester clothers and PVC boots with me :)

However, I would be against scare mongering and passing extremistlaws against wiccans, could you tell me where this is happening? It sounds interesting.


♥, bc.

Nature Red In Tooth And Claw (4.33 / 3) (#24)
by Peter Johnson on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 07:01:51 PM PST
That's Tennyson is it not?

I admire a firm grasp of poetry.
--Peter
Are you adequate?
--Peter
Are you adequate?

 
You missed the point. (2.00 / 2) (#25)
by id10t on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 07:43:48 PM PST
We don't extract revenge for harm done to us, not at all. We simply believe that if we do harm, it is returned to us threefold, therefore we obviously try never to harm anyone or anything if we can avoid it.

As for living in the natural world, whether you like to believe it or not, you do. Don't issues of pollution and global warming have effect in the city as well as in the country? Of course they do. You can no more escape the natural world than you can escape living; the only way out of either is death.


 
scare mongering (1.33 / 3) (#27)
by SpaceGhoti on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 08:57:58 PM PST
By a cosmic coincidence, I've got an answer for you: the very first story I submitted to K5 here. Then look up our revered US President Bush's comments regarding any religion that doesn't include "Christian" in the name.

Are Christians trying to scare monger against Wiccans and other alternate religions? Damned straight. In Cherry Creek, New York, there's a strong New Age movement along with a significant Wiccan presence. As a native of that area who grew up under strong "Christian" influences, I can testify as to the stories told about what happens when "good Christians" attempt to "minister" to the pagans. The tales of black magic run rampant.

Try doing some research on a topic you're trying to debunk before you make any claims.


A troll's true colors.

So you can testify to heresay. Your point? (1.00 / 1) (#88)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:40:19 AM PST



 
eye for an eye (1.00 / 1) (#104)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Aug 4th, 2001 at 04:21:03 PM PST
Eye for an eye is not christian, its summarian and part of Hammurabi's code. The first and worst legal system known to be developed.




 
threefold, heh (5.00 / 2) (#33)
by jsm on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 01:53:40 AM PST
Our first belief is known as "The Threefold Law", which tells us that whatever we create, be it joy or sorrow, laughter or pain, is brought back to us threefold

Please note that the Securities and Exchange Commission does not recognise this as a valid investment strategy.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the adequacy.org editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel, adequacy.org

 
No, you have it wrong. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 03:16:25 AM PST
I believe it was Alistair Crowley who said 'Do what thou wilt - shall be the whole of the law'. Now this seems to me to be totally at odds with the 'law of three'.

The 'law of three' can be scientifically disproven very quickly. Suppose I have two 'Wiccans' Lets call them 'Wiccan A' and 'Wiccan B'. Wiccan A gives Wiccan B a grain of rice. According to the 'rule of three' Wiccan B must now give Wiccan A three grains of rice.

Fair enough you might say. But now, Wiccan A is obliged to give Wiccan B NINE grains of rice (I think you can see where this is going). In the space of about 20 minutes, Wiccan B is in debt to Wiccan A to the tune of 2837766535646534665 grains of rice (more than the number of neutrinos in the entire known universe).

Hence the rule of three is scientifically impossible.

Anyway, I think dmg has made a valid point, (albeit in a joking style). Many modern Wiccans do not know anything about the craft, save for the 'trappings' the robes, jewelry etc. It has become a lifestyle/fashion choice.

Problem is, it means that real Wiccans will have an even harder time being taken seriously.


Crowley and Wicca (none / 0) (#38)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 06:08:18 AM PST
There's a pretty good bit of evidence that Crowley actually wrote mcuh the Gerald Gardner books and most of Gardner's Wiccan rites. These serve as the main source for most current Wiccan rituals. In fact, people who know both Masonry and formal Wicca (as opposed to the mall teen version) know the similarities in the rituals. The Masons are very good at initiatory psychodrama, and Crowley tended to steal from the best.

Anyway, "Do what thou Wilt is the whole of the Law" is tempered in OTO and Crowley-ite circles with "Love is the law, love under Will." I guess the Wiccans tried to condense the thoughts (incorrectly, imo) by putting in the caveat "An' it harm none" before "do as ye will." It's the magickal version of "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose." Crowley had no such compunctions, even with the bit about Love is the Law. My Will to slug someone could come out of love and "grandmotherly kindness" because that someone may just need to be womped upside the head.


 
"Threefold" (none / 0) (#90)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 10:54:03 PM PST
The threefold rule is not meant to be "Scientific". If it was, then yes, it wouldn't work out...

To explain it a bit better...We'll use your "Wiccan A" & "Wiccan B" example...

Wiccan A gives Wiccan B three grains of rice. Wiccan B is not obligied to give Wiccan A any rice back. Wiccan A has done a good favor for Wiccan B, so later on in life, Wiccan B might be able to help out Wiccan A in trouble of her/his own.

The threefold rule is nothing about having to pay some one triple what you got, it is about having done a "good" deed <not a bad one, because I don't belive in that> and later having a good deed happen to you, some times three times better. It can happen to anyone.

Let me give you a real life example...

A friend of mine has her car break down over the weekend, her A/C go out on the hottest day of the year, and she looses her job....Later that week, her friend helps her to fix her car, her neighbor gives her their extra A/C for free, and she finds a better paying job with better benefits than her last one.

Since most items of good and bad come in threes, it usually works out in some way. It varies altogether.

Katana


 
Uhm... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
by Electric Angst on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 07:20:35 AM PST
A practitioner of black magic simply does not last long

That is simply untrue, and displays the kind of simplemindedness about ethics that I find truely disturbing in Wicca. There are plenty of "black magic" practitioners who are doing quite well, and of course there are the other examples given here as to the rather mythical nautre of the three-fold law.

Simply put, I think the Wicca Rede is far too simple. "Do whatever you want as you as you harm none." I mean, c'mon. How do you judge 'harm'? By putting a someone in jail for murder, you're doing harm to that person. How do you even judge 'none'? You're doing harm to an animal if you eat it. Just breathing does harm to the hundreds of microorganisms that will be filtered through your nasal passage and die.

One of Wicca's great faults is this kind of oversimplification. Rather than take a deep, concerned look at Ethics, Wiccans would rather spout off some trite, pseudo-Old English phrase and forget about it. Unfortunantly, ethics isn't something you can just forget about, and I've seen the harm that's come on my own local Pagan community because of this.


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

Energies (3.00 / 2) (#65)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 07:46:45 AM PST
I think what is meant by "harm" is intending to harm someone with spiteful energy. If you send out spiteful and hurtful energy intending to hurt someone (physically, mentally or emotionally) then the belief is, that you would get that back three-fold. Same goes for healing and nurturing energies. This could be physically hitting are harming someone, deliberately intending to use spiteful words that you know would hurt them... as I said, what goes around comes around, and it is all based on the karmic belief. But I shall probably get jeered at for saying that too. *shrugs* I care not! Blessed be!! Amoriah


 
Wicca (1.00 / 1) (#70)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 07:35:15 PM PST
You go sister!! Witches are very spirtural people. We try very had to not judge others, unlike christians!! Teens who get into Wicca are not usely really witches. They are rebeling and it works. They want something that is going to shock most of you and you adults play right into their hand. Why not ask them about why they what to be witches? Perhaps the answer does not fit your path, but there are many path. May the Goddess truely help open your eyes to TRUE spirturality.


DId your goddess teach you to spell? (5.00 / 2) (#89)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:49:23 AM PST



 
don't be a hypocrite (5.00 / 2) (#101)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 25th, 2001 at 11:49:44 AM PST
"Witches are very spirtural people. We try very had to not judge others, unlike christians!!"

Just please bear in mind that you're being just as bad as you're accusing the Christians of being by saying that statement.


 
What kind of person suggests burning at the stake? (1.00 / 1) (#31)
by playfulpoet1977 on Thu Jul 12th, 2001 at 11:36:04 PM PST
I would like you to know something. Witches can not breathe underwater better than anyone else. I certainly hope that you are joking as your method would kill not only supposed "Witches" but "Good Christian Girls" by drowning. If someone DID happen to live through the ducking... here is what would happen when you burned the unfortunate individual at the stake. First her hair would start burning... Causing great discomfort for her and creating a rancid smell that would be very unpleasant for lookers-on. Then her skin and fat would ignite and she would let out an ear-splitting scream that would last several minutes until she was finally cooked enough to be killed. Lookers on would then see charcoaled flesh sloofing off of the muscles and bones. There is a chance that she would still be alive for some of that. When everything was over there would be a mess of toxic soot and ash and oil to pick up. This would be hazardous for watchers and clean up crew alike. So what you have suggested is inhumane not only for your accused "Witch" but also for any spectators involved. Imagine the trauma from witnessing such an event. Next, I would like to say that either those were not comments from real Witches or you just happened to find some really stupid and rebellous teenagers who don't know a thing about the Craft and just want to get some attention. P.S. A silver bullet would be no more effective than a regular one in killing a Witch than anyone else. You'd still have to hit the brain or the heart.


What a bunch of nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 01:04:32 AM PST
First, "Good Christian Girls" would never allow themselves to be placed in a position where they would be accused of witchcraft. That is quite simply un-Christian. Duh.

Second, I sincerely doubt that there is a person alive who can maintain a sustained scream for several minutes, and one being burned would definitely not be able to do so. You are also conveniently ignoring the fact that burning victims usually die from suffocation, not the actual fire.

Third, the only sort of person who would be alive after their flesh started to slough of the bone would require supernatural powers to achieve the feat. This would mean they were a witch, so who cares how much pain they go through?

Fourth, witnessing the burning would be cathartic, not inhumane. It is natural for men, women and children to want to see their enemies suffer.

The only valid point you make is that the soot and ash would be toxic. This is true, as the remains would be pure, condensed evil. It would be very wise to exercise extreme caution with by-product of good burning lest one of the innocents be corrupted by it.


Ignorance is bliss... (1.00 / 1) (#37)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 04:42:36 AM PST
So tell me, blissful Christians, how does it feel? The following snippit from the above post really strikes me as funny. *snip* Third, the only sort of person who would be alive after their flesh started to slough of the bone would require supernatural powers to achieve the feat. This would mean they were a witch, so who cares how much pain they go through? *snip* Supernatural powers??? Do you believe Superman really exists? I mean, you seem to believe in "supernatural powers" after all. I'm curious what all these so-called Christians feel about religions such as Buddhism... you know.... all those other religions that exist in the world that aren't "Christian". But wait.... didn't all these so-called Christians try to exterminate (via Crusades and such) everyone who wasn't under THEIR god? This would also include the Native American Indian. Christians INVADE the land the Indians live in, take their land away and deem these persons savages because they don't "worship" their god. I am so glad I no longer call myself a Christian.


The Crusades... (1.00 / 1) (#100)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 25th, 2001 at 03:21:52 AM PST
Don't get me started on those - "We are Xtians, we kill and main in the name of all that is good and rightious"... Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Thou shalt not kill" being one of the 10 commandments given to Moses by God on Mt Siani.

Also "Thou shalt not kill" is also relevant to those suggesting the murder of young girls (and why not throw in some boys as well, not all witches are female!)... So before you start harping on about murdering those who don't believe in what you do, make sure you are sure of your own belief system before you try to condemn others...


No (5.00 / 1) (#102)
by dmg on Thu Aug 2nd, 2001 at 08:54:23 AM PST
The correct translation of that particular commandment was 'thou shalt do no murder'. Which is completely different to 'thou shalt not kill'. Obviously there are plenty of case where killing someone is not murder. War for example. Or the death sentence for criminals.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

Wrong. (1.00 / 1) (#103)
by Electric Angst on Thu Aug 2nd, 2001 at 09:04:42 AM PST
If you honestly think that the deaths that occur during a war aren't murders, than you're just the kind of guy the fascists are looking for...


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

 
This must be a joke (1.00 / 1) (#40)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 08:16:04 AM PST
Dear Dmg

I am quite sure that this is a joke because some of it was highly amusing to me. But then again
some of the comments I have seen about Paganism and Wicca from people have made me laugh, then I
found out they were actually serious. Anyway here is what I think about the post.
You may find it hard to believe, but some people do not so much 'reject' Christianity and turn
to Wicca and paganism. It is more likely that they had no real belief in Christianity in the
first place. Much of the reason for this is because it is forced upon them and when they question it, they either get yelled at or told it's "all in His plan" or it's "His way", which really is a cop out if you ask me. Pagans don't seek converts. Most people turn to it because they want to.
If teenagers are confused at all it is probably because they have people telling them "because
you have to do as your told, don't question God because that's the way it is". The young people
do need to know the whys and wherefores, and they are human beings who have choices and freedom.
If they want to seek their own path, who are you to tell them they are wrong?
If anybody sounds confused, it is you, my friend. Most teenagers I have spoken to are very sure
indeed about what they want and where they are going.
And what is so wrong about individuality? It is the natural law of the younger generation to
change the world with their new ideas. We rely on it. It's called progress, and it happens in
any generation. We are not all sheep.
I certainly see no threat at all, and certainly would not dare to assume that the whole Christian community is frightened or paranoid about it, so I really don't think that you speak for them.
The three choices of people you interviewed surprised me. Surely you interviewed more than three but obviously omitted the people who did give you a good answer. I am certainly surprised that any race issue came into it at all. Paganism is not racist, ageist, sexist nor sizeist. Pagans
are all walks of life and nothing at all to do with colour. And excuse me? Satanic imagery?
Satan is a biblical figure. Paganism and Wicca has nothing to do with the bible at all. You
did not mention what "imagery" you were referring to. And you know what? We don't all walk around in black clothing either. If they want to dress that way, that should be their choice.
But one of the people you did interview did say that the path he has chosen does allow him to
be who he is without any restrictions. This is true, because we do not dictate to people who
or what they should be.
I certainly agree that the media does paint a rather dumb image of witchcraft, but it always has.
But to be concerned about "Bewitched"? That show came out in the Sixties for pity's sake! Are
you really going to insult the intelligence of youth to assume that they don't know the dfference between reality and fantasy? It's a good thing that most witches do have a sense of
humour because your article cracked me up.
I have been a witch for the past 26 years. I don't curse people and not once have I jumped off
a roof on a broomstick. (That statement alone convinced me that you are joking.)
We do not sacrifice animals, people or anything to please our deities (unlike the Old Testement)
We love animals. We love nature. We are trying to preserve it, not kill it.
You also appear to have a hangup about nudity. Someone should tell you that Queen Victoria is
dead! There is nothing at all wrong with the human body. We do not force people to strip for
a ritual. Some people are shy and wear what they like. Others feel more at one with nature to
be skyclad. It is no different to a naturists resort, and many of the open rituals to the public
have permission to use the site.
We celebrate nature with our Sabbats, and it is very happy and joyous. We don't stand around
all solemn round a fire raising the "forces of evil". Our rites are our prayers. Our rituals
are our thanksgiving to mother earth. We are glad to be alive, we are thankful for it. This
is our way of showing it, and we are not harming anybody. We have music and dance. It is a
festival.
I have no doubt at all that there are bad people in the world, and do use their gifts for greed
and revenge, but they are not necessarily pagans, Wiccans or any particular faith for that matter. You only have to read the world news to see that. But didn't Jesus say that you should cast the first stone if you are without sin?
Your suggestion of burning people at the stake, on the other hand, I did not find funny at all.
That is the sickest penalty of all, and there you are, accusing pagans of being barbarians!
We do not find it amusing that many innocent people were murdered just because somebody pointed
a finger at them, even if you WERE joking.
So in conclusion to all this, as amusing as your article was to begin with, the thing that bothers me most is that there are people like yourself out there that would actually believe all this twaddle that you have written. Don't pick on the youth for being clueless, because you obviously cannot tell your ass from your elbow. What goes around comes around.

Be well!!

Amoriah








Response (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by bc on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:03:09 AM PST
You may find it hard to believe, but some people do not so much 'reject' Christianity and turn to Wicca and paganism. It is more likely that they had no real belief in Christianity in the first place. Much of the reason for this is because it is forced upon them and when they question it, they either get yelled at or told it's "all in His plan" or it's "His way", which really is a cop out if you ask me. Pagans don't seek converts. Most people turn to it because they want to.

I must take exception to this. You are correct that Wiccans do not use massive physical pressure to convert people, as Christians do, however they are guilty of using peer pressure and the concept of `belonging`. This is why young teenage girls, the most vulnerable to peer pressure, are the most common Wiccans. Wiccans constantly exhort youngsters to `go the Wiccan way`, `Join us, go the Wiccan Way`, all the time. It is an insidious technique that I suspect is learned from such dodgy organisations as the Bahais, Falun Gong, Natural Law Party, and David Koresh. By preying on the loneliness of the young and weak in our society, and then using them to get their friends. This is worse than the methods of Christianity, because it is playing on peoples weaknesses and fears, on the rejected and sidelined in our society. A good example of such brainwashing techniques can be found at americanwicca.com.

And excuse me? Satanic imagery? Satan is a biblical figure. Paganism and Wicca has nothing to do with the bible at all.

Beelzebub does not just exist in the minds of Christians. He is a metaphor for certain beliefs and ways of thinking, and the use of His Name in connection with the deeds of Wicca is not entirely off the bat - Satan comes from a pre-christian tradition in the middle east, and is probably the God of a rival religion to the early Judaic tradition later absorbed into said tradition. Satan, in other words, represents paganism.

You also appear to have a hangup about nudity. Someone should tell you that Queen Victoria is dead! There is nothing at all wrong with the human body. We do not force people to strip for a ritual. Some people are shy and wear what they like. Others feel more at one with nature to be skyclad. It is no different to a naturists resort, and many of the open rituals to the public have permission to use the site.

Where peer pressure gets the young girls, rumours of free and easy sex spread by messages such as this capture the imaginations of young men, getting them where they are weakest - by the testicles. How many young men have been sucked into paganism by the rumours of free and easy young girls cavorting round fires naked? Please don't propagandise like this.

Your suggestion of burning people at the stake, on the other hand, I did not find funny at all. That is the sickest penalty of all, and there you are, accusing pagans of being barbarians!

I too would be against this sort of righteous response to the problem. Wiccans should not be persecuted, as that merely makes them stronger, like the early Christians martyred in Rome. However, I would be happy to leave wiccans alone, and have them do as they like with their simple religion and simple, unsophisticated system of morality. I just wish they would stop their insidious promotion. The world is sickened by religion as it is - do we really need another? Especially one which, in its traditional, historical incarnation, is extremely violent (pagans in Britain before St Columba, such as the Picts, were a very violent and amoral people)? I think not.


♥, bc.

Blink much? (1.66 / 3) (#50)
by SpaceGhoti on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:05:13 AM PST
"It is an insidious technique that I suspect is learned from such dodgy organisations..."

Like Christianity? Let me quote you some insidious propaganda I've seen recently: "Fear God." "What Would Jesus Do?" "Jesus First." Youthworker: The Contemporary Journal for Youth Ministry. Do a web search for "Christian youth ministry" and see how many hits you get. Then replace "Christian" for "Wicca" or "Wiccan" and see what you get. Just who is pushing propaganda here?

Satan, in other words, represents paganism.

A common link between Satan and Wicca would be Cernunos (spelling varies), the Horned God of the Hunt. Shortly after Christians arrived in the area, Satan began sprouting horns. It was a successful attempt to turn locals away from their old gods by portraying them as evil in favor of the new god, Jehovah. After a few generations of persecution, all opposing religions were snuffed out or forced underground. Nowadays we call this "thought control."

How many young men have been sucked into paganism by the rumours of free and easy young girls cavorting round fires naked?

Probably not as many as you think. Unlike some I could name, the Wiccans I'm familiar with are happy to share their opinions and beliefs, but are careful about how they present them. Most of them open up with, "please understand, this is not all about getting naked and having sex under the stars." They're not ashamed of nudity and they're quite enthusiastic about sex, but they're responsible about it. I consider that a far healthier attitude than hushing up about sex and vilifying it, leaving kids to find out for themselves in an environment where they're ashamed to talk about it.

I just wish they would stop their insidious promotion.

See above.

The world is sickened by religion as it is - do we really need another?

Goodness knows, Christianity has caused enough damage as it is.

Especially one which, in its traditional, historical incarnation, is extremely violent.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Religion, like all other things, requires maturity and a good sense of responsibility as well as boundaries. Almost every religion I can think of has its good precepts, guidelines for behavior and morality that encourage peace, prosperity and growth. Even Christianity. Every religion can and has been abused and twisted around for the purpose of war, discord and destruction. In the two thousand years of its history, Christianity has more blood and strife on its hands than not. Here's a classic description for you:

Do you believe in God? No. Die!

Do you believe in God? Yes.
Do you believe in my God? No. Die!

Do you believe in God? Yes.
Do you believe in my God? Yes.
Do you believe in my God my way? No. Die!

Tell me you've outgrown this behavior and I'll not only call you a hypocrite, but I'll also point you to hundreds of references proving you wrong. I'll be happy to let you follow your own beliefs in peace so long as you accord the same courtesy to everyone else.


A troll's true colors.

 
Thank you! (none / 0) (#58)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 03:25:01 PM PST
Thank you for a very decent reply to my comments, and I do respect your views. On the nudity issue, I do see your point, but of all the rites that I have attended there has been no sexual activity. But before someone slates me for saying that, that is just in MY lifetime. I am aware that there are strange cults... no one is denying that... but these cults are born of many different faiths and are not always pagan. (Koresh, for example, was convinced he was the next Messiah according to news articles that I have read about Waco.) But, thank you for seeing my post for what it actually was an not necessarily an attack, just an opinion. Be well Amoriah


 
Hrm... (none / 0) (#48)
by Electric Angst on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:55:42 AM PST
Okay, first of all, as a Pagan, I think that advocacy is just fine. I see nothing wrong with you wanting to counter something that could be seen as a rather nasty article.

I want to give you some pointers, though, that I believe could really help you. First of all, please, please, please be more careful with your formatting. Simply glancing at your post, it looks as if it was written by a child. If you wish to truely convey a mature argument, you must be willing to take pains in presenting it in a mature fashion.

Second, organize your thoughts. The conversational tone of writing on the internet can be a great aid, but it can also be a great burden. Remember, you are not talking to someone, you are writing, and people will be reading your words, not hearing them. The two forms of communication are very different, and require different tactics.

Now as to the content of your post, your using the word "sheep" to refer to those who don't "change the world" is an utter load of crap. You attempt to portray Christians in a stereotypical, negative light as conservative and opposed to change, when Christians have been the most active players in some of the greatest liberal movements of our history. Quakers and other Christian congregations were very infliential in the Abolitionist movement. Catholic priests protested Vietnam. Also, let us not forget the Reverand Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, who's Christian faith was his justification and source of strength as he worked for Civil Rights.

Also, your claims that "Paganism is not racist, ageist, sexist nor sizeist. Pagans are all walks of life and nothing at all to do with colour" does not hold as much water as you'd like to believe. I am aware of quite a few Asatru, just as Pagan as any Wiccan, who claim that their pure Nordic blood is descended directly from their gods, and that people of other ancestories are inferior (or, in less extreme circumstances, simply not fit to be Asatru). Yes, the wide umbrella term of 'Paganism', and a majority of Pagan religions, do not discriminate against people because of their race, nationality, gender, etc. Then again, almost no religion, philosophy, or ideology does that. Ideologies are one thing, but people are another. Paganism is made up of people, and some of those people do hold prejudices against others.

Finally, in your talk about nudity, you show an ignorance about the earlier versins of Wicca. Pick up some of the very early work by Gardner, or barring that (since most book stores wouldn't carry it) the oldest book you could probably pick up is Buckland's "Big Blue Book of Magick" (not the actual title, but the Pagan comminity's nickname for it, since the book is oversized and has a blue cover). Looking at the earlier work, you can see that nudity was a requirement for participating in ritual. In fact, sexual acts were a basic part of the ritual, if not the entire ritual itself. Wicca started out essentially as a sex cult, and has only been in it's "People don't have to be naked, the Great Rite is only symbolic" stage for less than twenty-five years. (I'm surprised you didn't already know this, since you claim you're been practicing for 26 years.) One should be aware of their past, and your comment showed a fairly poor awareness of where Wicca has been...


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

Sorry teacher I'll try harder next time (none / 0) (#55)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 02:00:55 PM PST
Please don't be upset about my portraying others in a stereotypical, negative light when you support exactly the same yourself in that ridiculous article. And your pompousness is laughable. If you had read what I had said properly, I said I have been a practicing WITCH for 26 years, not a practicing WICCAN. All witches are not Wiccan, so before you smugly accuse me of not having any knowledge of what I am speaking of, maybe you should wear your glasses when you are reading the posts. Incidentally, I was not aware that this was an essay writing class and that I would get "must try harder" sprawled across it. This is my style of addressing posts, and if you think it's child like then so be it, but I find the original belief of people flying off on brooms much more worther of the kindergarten. But you obviously support that view so....... ;-) Amoriah


See what I have to deal with here? (none / 0) (#56)
by Electric Angst on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 02:25:19 PM PST
Oh, the famous "I'm a witch, not a Wiccan" line. How quaint. Well, if you're been a witch for 26 years, and had any contact with even the most remote aspects of the larger Pagan community in that time, then I would assume you would have more knowledge than you displayed. Also, if you began practicing witchcraft such a long time ago, when information and materials were much harder to come accross than they are now, then that indicates you must have had some type of contact with other Pagans. In fact, if you've been a devout practitioner of any magickal system for even half that amount of time, then I'd expect you to display more wisdom in your post than the "Oh you mean mister Christian" propaganda you spouted off. As it is now, you've strained your credibility to the point that I'd have to see some evidence to believe your claims.

Now, as far as your assertion that it's okay to wrongly portray Christianity negativly because of the negative slant the article pins on Wicca, that's the most vindictive, counter-productive, dumbest thing I've heard all week. Yes, the article made outrageous and untrue claims. It did it in a facetious and lighthearted manner, using sharply honed rhetoric and logic while starting with a rather absurd set of assumptions. Your rebuttle involved some correct assumptions, but horribly poor logic and rhetoric. Thusly, the origional article of of much higher quality than your hateful, vindictive reply. I certainly don't support the article, but that doesn't mean that I won't point out the flaws in your rebuttle. I don't particularly like my side of an issue being tarnished by loudmouths who don't know how to argue.

If you really want to defend Wicca, than I suggest that you attempt to improve your arguments. You have the facts right, but after reading your posts it appears that you lack the intelligence and determination to be able to properly adocate those facts. 'Till you do, I think it would be best if you did your best to keep your mouth shut.


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

Are we getting red in the face yet? (none / 0) (#57)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 03:04:39 PM PST
Calm down dear, you'll give yourself a heart attack. I have no idea why you are so angry, when all I did was state my opinion and yet all you have done is spout abuse about how childish and unintelligent I supposedly am. How very Christian of you! You accuse me also of not practising what you seem to think I preach. Maybe you should take a look at yourself before judgeing me, or maybe not judge at all. Telling people to shut their mouths on a public forum is in itself idiotic, but I fear that I am wasting my time here with such a jumpy and twitchy and utterly pointless argument. I shall go in peace, please forgive me if I hit a nerve there. BB Amoriah


Yet another post to point out the obvious: (none / 0) (#66)
by Electric Angst on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 03:15:48 PM PST
You know, looking over this post, I begin to wonder if you even understand the points that I made about proper style and composition. It appears that you have a severe deficiency in the area of reading comprehension. For example, despite my repeated statments of my Pagan faith, you seem to still think that I'm a Christian. (Either that, or you made yet another bigoted slam against an entire faith, showing the dark intolerence you harbor.)

Also, you failed to see that I did not tell you to shut your mouth, I pointed out that if you continue to make your ill-formed arguments that you would be doing harm to the very cause you with to advocate. This is not some command, it is simply a fact.

Then there is the entire issue of tone, and your complete inability to grasp the calm and reasoned nature of my post, and instead decided to consider it an angry rant. (This is obviously a sign that the nerves struck in this thread were yours. I only hope you see beyond the mere damage to your ego and see the truth in my words.)

Finally, there is the issue of judgement. I made a point about the composition of your post and the ideas within, and later, to some questionable claims you made. Had you given a paper written similarly to that post to a professor, and he or she had given you a failing grade, would you consider that "unfair judgement"? I think not. Judgement is an inevitable part of life, and I suggest that the next time you want to attempt to defend or advocate Wicca, realize that your words will not only bring about judgement from others about yourself, but about Wicca as a whole.


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

As I have said (none / 0) (#79)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 12:58:11 PM PST
You are not my professor and if you dislike what I say so much, why bother to comment on it? Surely if I'm that stupid, I am "beneath" you to associate yourself with?
To me, it seems that you are more pre-occupied with concerning yourself with the way my posts are written and have been very quick to assume that I am "childish" or "stupid" and also "uneducated" when it comes to my pagan background instead of actually discussing the original issue.
You do not know me, sir, therefore please refrain from your assumptions about my knowledge of the Craft. I noticed that you even mocked me for not being a Wiccan!! ie: "oh that famous phrase, how quaint".
It matters not what faith you are to me, that is your business, and mine is mine.
I did apologise for hitting a nerve, but once again you have also taken that the wrong way. So you don't agree with me? Is that any reason to insult me? That is why I thought you were very uptight and angry with your posts.
I have no doubt at all that you shall probably want to have the last word on this thread, but my original posts still stands and I recant nothing, I shall no longer bother replying to you as I feel it pointless to do so. So go ahead knock yourself out, I know you want to. ;-D

Blessings all

Amoriah


One Last Time, For the Kids... (none / 0) (#81)
by Electric Angst on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 05:58:55 AM PST
Well, thank you for the invitation to respond to your comment. I apologize for its tardiness, as I'm sure you've been waiting to read my "last word".

Now, the origional issue was your inability to be a proper advocate for Wicca. Even now, people are reading your half-baked post at the very beginning of this thread, a post that does more to harm Wicca than the rather well-written, adsurd article you were rebutting. I've been discussing this issue in every one of my posts, and anyone reading this thread should be well aware of that fact.

Now, I did not mock you for not being Wiccan. I mocked you for using a rather lame excuse for lacking knowledge that you would almost certainly have if your initial claims (of having practiced the craft for 26 years) were true.

So, since this is the "last word" after all, let me summerize. You do not yet possess the intelligence or cohesion of thought nessicary to attempt to advocate or defend Wicca, or any other form of Paganism for that matter, in so public a forum as this.


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

Jeez (none / 0) (#85)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:44:28 PM PST
I think you should both shut up. She sounds like a flakey hippie with half a brain, and you sound like an obnoxious know-it-all who also has not shed any light on the original topic,
so therefore are no better, nor mature than she is by actually walking right into that one.
Grow up and get a life, the pair of you.


Oh, I see... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
by Electric Angst on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 02:04:37 PM PST
And you're more mature because you come into a conversation that ended days ago on a web log who's primary purpose is to encourage debate and gripe about the manner of debate you see between two people? Well, congratulations, Wunder-Kid, I guess you showed us.


--
In the dark times, will there still be singing?
Yes, there will be singing. There will be singing about the dark times. -- Bertolt Brecht

 
Nothing "intelligent" about paganism (none / 0) (#94)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:30:09 AM PST
By its very nature, paganism rejects human intellectualism and in practice, well, we can see from the fine example you provide this is also the case.


 
Numerous comments deleted, with regret (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by jsm on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 08:39:48 AM PST
It appears that our Wiccan friends can't read. Trolling is not tolerated on adequacy.org and editors, chiefly myself will delete first and ask questions later.

Rhiannon, Ravencrow, Sygil and two Anonymous Readers, you can't see your comments on this story because they have been removed. Feel free to keep posting to adequacy.org, but stop trolling.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the adequacy.org editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel, adequacy.org

Yes (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by bc on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:15:19 AM PST
I also had to deal with Angharad, Davedd and Jaredd, all of who gave nothing to this debate but personal invective and extreme insults.


♥, bc.

Extreme insults is an understatement (5.00 / 1) (#45)
by iat on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:22:40 AM PST
I think Jaredd's promise to put a curse upon dmg was more than just an insult - Dmg's life was threatened and I think he has grounds to sue.

Please, try to be polite in your replies to the article and try to refrain from all this "evil eye" business. It's not right to vindictively use your powers against people, just in response to what they've posted on a weblog. Thanks in advance :)


Adequacy.org - love it or leave it.

The Threefold Rede (4.00 / 4) (#46)
by jsm on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:30:21 AM PST
Indeed, and because it amuses me, I have adopted a new editorial policy; for every further troll comment posted by a Wiccan, I will delete three comments by randomly selected Wiccans.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the adequacy.org editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel, adequacy.org

 
This Hurts Me (1.00 / 1) (#43)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:07:45 AM PST
dmg, the thought that you would still want to kill true Wiccans and Witchs of the world today is ASTOUNDING and very very hurtful. I grew up in a Christian home. And I just turned my religion to Wicca. But I still hold some of Christianitys ideas and thoughts in my heart but I DO believe some of them. I am in no way bad or evil. TRUE Wiccans do not do harm to others. 8 words the Wiccan Rede fulful: an ye harm non, do what ye will. We believe in respecting all things at all times (although we are humans of course and slip up a lot). This goes down to the littlest things, of even not hurting ourself. Purpously anywyay. Christians should think about what dmg posted and think about what this really means. Why write about Wicca when you could write about Satanism? Are the "evil" and fake Wiccans really that different then people who outwardly worship the Christians enemy? Once being a Christian myself, I think that you should open your arms to the diversity in religions around you. If you are reall, truly concerned with us teens today (especially us girls) then you should stop hating and start loving. Loving is what draws us close rand loving is what opens the doors to conversation and listening. Please please don't continue this hate. It's so sad, and hurtful and honestly doesn't make any non -Christians (or Christians for that matter) think very highly of Christianity. Blessed be and Merry ye part!


Your question does not make sense to me. (2.75 / 4) (#47)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 09:35:25 AM PST
Why write about Wicca when you could write about Satanism?

What is the difference between Wicca and Satanism ? Both are anti-Christian religions.


I'll field this one. (3.00 / 3) (#49)
by SpaceGhoti on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 10:34:01 AM PST
What is the difference between Wicca and Satanism ? Both are anti-Christian religions.

Satanism is the belief that God and Satan are real. It believes that contrary to popular opinion, Satan is the stronger entity and therefore deserving of proper worship. However, most "Satanists" I've spoken with don't have the first clue what they're talking about. It's more often an act of rebellion and attempts to shock the mundanes than a viable religious belief. There's far more to being evil than spouting offensive language and trying to cast curses.

Wicca is an attempt to resurrect an ancient religious belief that got persecuted and mostly stamped out long, long ago. It's anti-Christian in that ancient Christians are most directly responsible for the persection of Wicca. Rather than worship Satan, it suggests that Satan is an artificial construct designed to keep the sheep followers of Christianity in line. Good and evil are created out of human will rather than malevolent deities; Nature is not so much evil as uncaring. The deities that do control aspects of our world such as fire and growth and death don't care to inflict more or less suffering on anyone, they're interested in balance. Comparing Wicca to Satanism is like comparing a racecar to a nectarine. There's really no basis for comparison, except that they both deny the existence of the Judeo-Christian God.

If you choose to use that last statement as proof of Wicca's "satanic" nature, then I leave you to your fanaticism.


A troll's true colors.

Actually (5.00 / 1) (#51)
by elby on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:18:01 AM PST
True satanism is not the worship of satan, but the belief of the power of man.


Golly! (3.66 / 3) (#53)
by SpaceGhoti on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:31:00 AM PST
I'm a satanist!

Even after thirty years, I learn something new every day.


A troll's true colors.

well that wasn't 100% accurate... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
by elby on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 04:47:36 PM PST
Satanists often debate about the existance or non existance of satan as an entity. Depending on which faction of the church of satan you're talking about those views can differ.

However from their faq, I think this clears it up nicely:

Aren't Satanists "devil worshippers?"

No! The difference between Satanism and devil worship is simple;

Devil worshippers are nothing more than wannabe renegade Christians still drowning in the belief that to be a Satanist they must use dogma that is the reverse of Christian belief. Satanist are free thinkers, moving forward spiritually through self-exploration and spiritual stimulation. Strictly speaking, a devil worshipper is someone who worships evil as a moral absolute. The Satanist does not recognize "good and evil" per se - only cause and effect (yin/yang).


From here


No kidding? (1.00 / 1) (#60)
by SpaceGhoti on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 05:30:00 PM PST
Still sounds like a case can be made for my Satan-worshiping. Which is, of course, why I'm inclined to throw my hands up and wish religious fanatics a happy delusion. I'll be in the corner carving my niche in the world.

However, I'll concede your point on the true nature of Satanism. Unfortunately, as I may have already mentioned, I've met a few "Satanists" who believe themselves to be the definition I've described. Either that or I've been trolled; it makes little difference to me.


A troll's true colors.

 
I've gotta read my Satanic Bible again (none / 0) (#72)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 15th, 2001 at 01:43:29 AM PST
I dont remember anything as namby-pamby as that crock of baby food .... hmmmm


 
Not anti-Christian (none / 0) (#64)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 07:29:29 AM PST
Wicca is not anti-christian....... it's based on pre-Christian beliefs. This was Gerald Gardner's own perception of Paganism. I know some Christian Wiccans! Figure that one out, because I can't, but it's their path and not mine, so live and let live. Amoriah


Yeah well... (none / 0) (#83)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 06:30:10 PM PST
I know several christian witches as well as goddess christians, christian shamans and the such not. Its pretty interesting stuff this mixing of christianity and paganism. You should check it out. If I can find what I did with my lists of links i'll post them for ya.


Oh wait... (none / 0) (#84)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 06:34:30 PM PST
Heres an interesting site http://www.christianwicca.com/goddess.html (above post is mine) Anna Sirii


 
The difference between Wiccans and Satanists? (none / 0) (#71)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 15th, 2001 at 01:32:03 AM PST
Satanists are anti-christian...as a religion - wiccan/pagans are not anti-christian, we really don't care what you believe. There are wiccan/pagan persons who are anti-christian, and usually for good personal reasons. Wiccans & pagans don't believe in Satan. Satan's strictly a Christian deity or anti-deity. Satanists are an "answer" to christianity. They try to be the exact opposite of christianity--they say "their" masses backwards, they sometimes use the upside-down cross and such as that. Since neo-satanists have borrowed some objects/ritual garb from neo-pagans/wiccans they seem be unfairly linked to the wiccan/pagan movement. But we pagan/wiccan are not even remotely interested in Satan, and much less the persons who worship him.


 
Wicca (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 05:58:03 PM PST
Wicca and witchcraft are not satanic. If some one was worshiping satan then they would b a satanist. Who ever said that they where the same needs to sit down with a real witch that has practiced it for many years and talk. It is not the same thing. witches deal with the wheels of the seasons, herbs, candles and their body energy. That energy is magik. If some one taps into it is to be used under means of goodness and not evil. A person that does not like wicca because they have that silly though that it is used for evil and talk to some one that is a practacing witch. I am 14 and I was baptized by witch that happens to be my mother. She gave me the right to choose what religon I wanted to practice. I went to church twice and thought that does nothing for my. I did som reseach and found that I have a liking of all the spell casting roots. I thinned it out to three, Shaman, Druid, and regular Wicca. I practice a little of each every day and am looking at schools to practice at. Do some resaech before calling anything satanic, your usely wrong and don't have the knowledge to discripe it properly. ~~~~sorry for spelling.~~~~


 
Fools and their Punishments (1.00 / 2) (#62)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:04:50 PM PST
Ladies and Gentlemen, I say consider this. Ignore this fool, who obviously does absolutely no research on his subjects, who hides, cowering behind a enigmatic handle, who obviously says these things just for attention and a irritated reaction. As a Wiccan of almost 9 years, it's people like this that make me wish that we were again a unified force like that of before the inquisition and the burning times. Equal to that of the Religious Right. Oh I wish for the day... As for you, sir, oh knight of uncontrolled ignorance, I hope you and your ignorance and your annoying habits and your foolish ways are all forgotten. May this filth and bigoted trash that you have wasted our time with, be never veiwed by another person, intellegent or otherwise. Truely it is the unintellegent people that we of the craft need to worry about. And I really worry about this guy. Somnia Magus somniamagus@hotmail.com


you know... (5.00 / 2) (#63)
by osm on Fri Jul 13th, 2001 at 11:09:56 PM PST
if you are going to use intelligent in a sentence, at least learn how to spell it correctly.


 
haha (5.00 / 1) (#69)
by bc on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 04:11:06 PM PST
Condensed version of above post follows

Ignore this fool....'intellegent'...cowering behind a enigmatic handle...Somnia Magus somniamagus@hotmail.com

*ahem*


♥, bc.

 
Are you Serious!?! (none / 0) (#67)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 03:53:33 PM PST
I read this and can not believe that you are serious...burn witches...wicca and witchcraft are evil? Perhaps you ought to become a little more well read on the subject before you post something so ridiculously ignorant. First of all the first law of Wicca is "to harm none," which includes not only others but oneself. It seems to be that the world would be a far better place if all people, no matter what their religious preferences observed this basic tenent. Obviously you don't. That being said, how can Wicca or witchcraft be evil when the first thing one must do is vow never to hurt anyone or anything? Until this moment I never believed that the "Burning Times" could return, but now I see that I have been ignorant. That there are uneducated, fearful, hurtful people in the world that still want to destroy what they do not understand. Kind of like when Christ was crucified...


To Harm None, eh? (none / 0) (#68)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 14th, 2001 at 03:57:21 PM PST
How is this defined?

Literaly none? Nothing at all? Microbes and bacteria, which you kill in your millions every day, too?

And what do you mean by 'harm'?

You are breaking your tenet typing on the keyboard, as every bash of your fingers upon the keys kills thousands of innocent microscopic creatures.

Hitler would have had a field day with a moral philosophy as full of holes as yours.


 
Afraid for my life and my families... (1.00 / 1) (#91)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:08:46 PM PST
Hi, let me just say that, after a read your article, I was cringing in my chair. I had jumped back from the computer, afraid of the words that I read....

My parents are both Wiccan, High Priest & High Priestess of a Circle in Manhattan, KS. I have grown up Wiccan for most of my life. I have been comfertable wtih who I am for almost the same time frame, except for in grade school, when I thought that if anybody knew that I was a "witch" that they would burn me at the stake.

But I learned to get over that, but it is people like YOU who make me weary of becoming friends with anyone. I have a few good Christian friends that I can actually call friends, and the same with them, but with you, I never want to meet anyone like you, one who is willing to kill people to get rid of the "bad ones". What if your son/daughter all of a sudden said "Mom/Dad, I want to be a Wiccan and follow in the footsteps of the Goddess." Would you burn your own flesh and blood to make him/her "pure" again? Would you shoot a silver bullet through their chest and watch the blood rise up as they lay there crying your name and "Why, why do you want to hurt me, mommy/daddy??" Sit them on a chair and watch as they drown because you couldn't tell if they were actually breathing or not under the water that you pushed them into? Do you want to murder your children, then go right ahead, but keep your bloody hands off of me!!!

Katana


wicca: Just a cover for the lazy and inept (5.00 / 1) (#95)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:46:05 AM PST
Dear child, it's not a "circle", it's a "coven" - seems you'd know that if you were really a "witch" (as if there is any such thing!) If you like to claim the wiccan non-religion go ahead - I realize there are an awful lot of folks like yourself too inept or lazy to actually distinguish themselves through their own achievements. If this is the only way you can/will distinguish yourself, go ahead. You and those like you are no threat to anyone - except those as equally inept and lazy as yourself. wicca is just a little club for people who can't handle the responsibilities and obligations that go with genuine religious belief and practice. it's an easy, no commitment, no-effort-required way for the lazy and ignorant to claim a "religion". Nothing more, plenty less.


Actually... (none / 0) (#96)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 11:14:07 PM PST
Actually AN a group of witches can be called a coven OR a circle... Perhaps your the one who should do more research. *wicca is just a little club for people who can't handle the responsibilities and obligations that go with genuine religious belief and practice. it's an easy, no commitment, no-effort-required way for the lazy and ignorant to claim a "religion". Nothing more, plenty less.* And chrisitianity is a "commited religion"? Besides going to church on Sunday alot of christians I know don't really do anything else involved with christianity during the week... Seems like during the week its okay for them to "slack off" but on Sunday they come to church and act like perfect christians. And thats commited? Only practicing it one day a week? Whatever!?!?! I mean most of the pagans know the Bible better then alot of christians I know!! Same goes for other religions... My point? Well none really except for that you can't say that wicca is just for the lazy non practicing types. Some say they are Wiccan without really practicing it but alot of christians say they are christians and they don't practice it. So my question to you does that make christianity a non religion? And no I'm not a Wiccan. I'm christian but I tend to side with pagans alot. I have nothing but respect for their religion and I hope they have respect for mine(even if I don't sometimes!). Walk in Light and Love Anna Sirii


 
Dumbness? (1.00 / 1) (#92)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:40:43 PM PST
I don't know if you guys are so fucking dumb, but, don't you think that exactly persons, as intolerant as YOU are, will burn the first in the Eternal flames of Hell??????? You are the highest Luciferanians I have ever seen on Planet Earth, having NO respect for Civil Laws and I will make sure that YOUR online site will be stopped forever!!


Oh yeah ? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
by dmg on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:50:38 PM PST
Bring it on, witch-boy!!!

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

 
Too funny! (2.00 / 3) (#98)
by Seithman on Sun Jul 22nd, 2001 at 10:17:51 AM PST
I'm not sure which is more amusing: The article or the responses.

Okay, folks, before you get your undies in any more of a bunch, read the paragraph of the essay again. Did you notice where they were advocating using the "see if she floats" test for Witches? Now, do you know of ANYONE who would seriously believe this today? This is obvious a huge satire -- and well done, if you ask me.

Now for a few comments on some of the posts I've seen here:

1. Aleister Crowley wrote Gardner's BoS. Umm...yeah. Have you actually *read* any Crowley? The man was a misogynistic bastard. He was even quoted saying "the only good thing about a women is that she might have been a man in a previous life." This is really the kind of man that could develop a ritual and religious structure that gives women the power that a HPS holds in a Gardnerian coven?? Come now, let's use a little common sense.

2. Many of today's self-proclaimed "Wiccans" don't know what Wicca is all about. Absolutely true. Unfortunately, the "sheep mentality" is not limitted to Christianity. Many of today's Pagans have no deeper understanding of their own faith than the monotheists they criticize. But hey, who am I to judge? I'll worry about my own spiritual growth, thank you.

3. Discrimination and Paganism. The previous poster is absolutely right. There are racist, sexist, homophobic, and religiously intolerant Pagans out there. I myself spent a great amount of time finding an Asatru organization that did not promote "racial purity" or other such nonsense.

4. "An ye harm non, do what thou wilt." Okay, before the next person quotes that phrase, please go read something by Gerald Gardner or find your local 3* Gardnerian. Truth be told, it is NOT the "bottom line" of Traditional Wicca's ethical system. It is merely a suggestion, and does not even mean what most "mall-rat Wiccans" think it does.

Okay, rant over. Thank you to the author for amusing me so much. If you're ever in my area, stop by and I'll buy you a drink.



 

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