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Poll
Why do you believe what you believe?
I was taught these beliefs by my family 1%
I was taught these beliefs within a formal education 0%
I came to these beliefs after spending time with my peers 7%
I rejected Religion when I became an adult 37%
I spent time in a sabatical thinking about it 9%
I play mind games all the time 25%
I don't know what I really believe 16%
It's none of your business! 1%

Votes: 54

 The Problem is You - Not Religion

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Aug 28, 2001
 Comments:
Over the last few years, since leaving a Catholic education, I have seen a little more of the world, and the people that are attempting to make their way within it. I'll be blunt - when it comes to Religion, I'm pretty disappointed. I am growing increasingly weary from hearing chants of `Religion is evil' on the one hand, `If you won't allow yourself to be saved by Jesus you'll go to hell' on the other and everything else in between.

The issue, in my opinion is not that Religion is a problem - or even the lack of belief in one (as some believe) - but rather humanity as a whole in its blinkered state refuses to allow individuals to think for themselves. Everything you know and believe about Religion has been spoon fed to you since you were a child and even if you abhor Religion, your attitudes to it are most likely nothing more than an ill-founded reaction that you are too lazy to think about and here I'm going to try and challenge those thoughts.
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Here is a premise to give some background to my theory on Religious belief in the modern day: Absolutely nothing in this world is original. Every piece of art, literature, engineering, is an abstract copy of something that has been learnt or experienced by its creator(s) previous to them embarking or completing their creation. With language, this is simple to prove. We learn our native tongue as a child from those around us, and from then on all the language we use is composed of the words we have been taught within a given context previously, placed in a different order - e.g. we are taught that `table' is a noun given to a free-standing structure we place objects upon. We are taught that `God' is the name of an omnipotent being many believe is our Father. If I create a piece of art, a letter, or even this article, I am drawing on previous experience and inspiration. If this is not an abstract form of plagiarism then I'm a melting watch. I am proposing that Religion - and yes, it does deserve a capital `R' - is no different, and that is why we not only have groups of individuals who appear deluded into believing somebody else's ideas, but we in addition have the opposite group who are incapable of constructing an argument any further than `your Religion sucks'.

I started thinking about this some years ago, when I first attempted to read Sophie's World. A book written in a style that would suggest it is suitable for a child, concerning philosophy - in other words, Religion (or at any rate, Theology) in another name. The book is enjoyable, and is recommended to any of you who feel you need a very gentle introduction into the art of philosophy. At the time it didn't strike me profound, but there is a discussion in the book about how people came to believe in Thor. The general idea was, people were sitting around one day trying to work out what thunder and lightning was all about. With a lack of knowledge concerning how lightning works the best explanation they could come up with was an angry God with a mighty tool (his hammer) was striking the sky. Belief and worship in Thor did not require human sacrifice, as was the case with his `father' Odin, so we are given some insight as to why he became popular. The point I am attempting to make is that what we see here is the foundation of religion - the attempt to explain something that is not currently explainable in terms that can be understood by the people of the time. Thor's hammer was an acceptable belief in what caused thunder and lightening.

Today is a different World however. We don't behave like that. We don't hear a clap of thunder, and assume it is an angry God. However, we also don't try and form our own beliefs and opinions ourselves anymore. The Vikings created Gods to explain phenomena that they could not explain through any other means. In today's World where Science is the pop-Religion of reason, when we need to seek spiritual guidance, we mimic others. The worst thing is, those individuals who claim to abhor Religions are just as guilty of this ignorance and laziness as those who hold them true to their hearts. The evidence for this is obvious, simple, and I'm really hoping that somebody is going to point out the thoughts I'm having are not original in the slightest.

I was brought up as a Catholic. I was never baptised - my father suggested successfully to the rest of my family as a lapsed-protestant, that I should make my own mind up when I was old enough - however I went to Catholic schools until the age of 16. It will come as no surprise to you then, that as a child I held mostly Catholic beliefs about God, Jesus, how to live one's life and so on. That is because I was living in a `Catholic context'. I would be as equally unsurprised to discover that a child born and raised into a Jewish family and culture would on the whole, believe in the Jewish faith rather than the Catholic faith. This is part of the problem. As children we are spoon fed Religion and it is taken as truth. When we ask our fathers what makes the car go, and he describes an engine and it's workings and interactions with the magical petrol within, it is with no more or less truthfulness in his face and manner than when he may describe as to why we should pray on a regular basis. Equally, our family, our peers (who are likely to come from similar families and cultures) and even our teachers are people who we believe in and trust. As children, we accept this, and we grow into adult life with many of these beliefs intact.

At this point, one of two things can happen - these beliefs stay with us into adult life, and we continue to preach our beliefs. Or, some may decide that everything they have been taught is no more meaningful to life and existence than stories about the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. They may reject Religion in its entirety. They may create Websites describing everything that is wrong with Religion. They will deem that all Religion is wrong, that it has created more misery and suffering on this planet than any other force. Some will call for it to become illegal. Others will even claim that with organised Religion you will never find Jesus and make God happy. However, these individuals are often guilty of exactly the same crime that evangelists and believers are criticised for - pomposity and laziness.

Without challenging your own thoughts, beliefs, culture and even the way you were brought up, you are going to fall into one of two camps - those who believe in something because they were brought up to believe it, or those who don't believe in something because they were brought up to believe it. This latter category can be extended into those people who practise `alternative' religions - they reject, say, Christianity, and take up, say, Paganism. They have swapped out one set of somebody else's beliefs for another set of somebody else's beliefs. This, I truly believe, is what is wrong with the world. In fact, I think wars are fought not because beliefs are different, but because opposing sides can't accept that anybody who thought about Religion should come up with any other belief than the one they hold themselves. In other words, the Anti-Religion lobby is just as bad at creating disharmony as those groups they make so much effort in criticising. Let's do a little thought experiment. We're going to define `God'. In a way that is not in current use in the World today by any organised Religion I know of. Should be fun. This is normally known as 'amateur religion' or 'DIY religion'.

OK, the one school of thought that has challenged the organised Religions of this World for centuries is Science. Many who leave the Christian churches do so under the name of science, and many who wish to remain within the fold will challenge Science (evolution theory, and so on). How about this then - God is Science. Science is God. Think. No, don't just sit there shouting. God created the Universe (big bang theory). He causes miracles (probability theory), he is omnipotent (laws of physics apply everywhere in the Universe), he did create life (biology) and evolution is his chosen method of developing life, it could even be argued that he requires our worship (inherent in humans is our curiosity at the Universe around us, how it is made, and seeing as God made us, and we are seeking him, etc.) - anyway you get the idea. Why is this any more valid a Religion or less valid a Religion than any other? It isn't. I've done exactly the same as every other primitive human on this planet (don't argue we're not primitive - just because we have McDonalds doesn't mean we've reached the pinnacle of evolution) and decided that as I can't define how all this marvellous science exists, and how the Universal laws can just `be' that I shall call them collectively `God'.

It even has a suggestion as to what happens if we die (we rot into the earth through a process most people don't really understand), yet leaves room for future amendment towards an after-life (we are always learning about science, we don't really know a gret deal yet, etc.) If I hold it as my belief, am I achieving any more enlightenment than any other human being? Probably not, but at least I know one thing - I put some effort into my belief. That process alone means that I am attempting to understand the Universe around me, in my own terms rather than somebody else's. I'm also putting effort into understanding other's beliefs. If we all did this, how would the World change?

I am not suggesting that the above description of `God' is a suitable grounding for a belief or Religion. What I am trying to show is that anybody can challenge the beliefs around them, produce something abstract, and test these thoughts out in their own heads without consequence - in fact, some Churches are so scared of you doing this, they will tell you that you will go to Hell (or equivalent) if you entertain such thoughts. To not go through this process at some point in your life, means you have just become another one of `them' - chances are, you vote the same way your parents did. You hold the same set of values and morals as those that you grew up with, or your current peers. You're just not thinking, are you?

If you go away and think about this, and you work really, really hard, you read as much as you can, you play games in your mind about your beliefs and the beliefs of those around you and you challenge everything in the World around you and try to redefine it all in terms of what you think you should believe, and at the end of it you decide that Jesus was our Saviour, nobody can point the finger and say you're an idiot. Nor can they if you decide that all Religion is stupid. Or if you decide that God is really just another name for the combined laws of Science. Because you can turn around and say `at least I made the effort'.


not that I want to seem like a whiner... (none / 0) (#5)
by motherfuckin spork on Tue Aug 28th, 2001 at 09:42:27 PM PST
but I find your poll vastly lacking in the ability to answer the proposed question. The choices given are too limited in scope, and do not take into account people who have embraced the concept of religion from a spiritualistic point of view - we don't really need the "religion" - the rules and regulations invented by man, but we feel strongly about the spiritual aspect. A choice such as this isn't made on sabatical, not made by talking with your peers, and not shoved down your throad in a school. Ironically, I came to this end by way of a Catholic university, and through the studies of Native American cultures and religion, and how some tribes were able to not only embrace Catholicism, but to incorporate it into their existing religion, adding new insight.


I am not who you think I am.

spiritualism (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by Nobody on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 06:49:20 AM PST
I must confess I find it much easier to respect a spiritual person rather than a religious person - it seems to suggest a little more free will on the part of the individual.

I find the judgmental nature of most religions most off-putting - the fact that they resort to scare tactics. E.g. if you don't believe you'll go to hell. Conform to our arbitrary set of lifestyle choices and ideals ... or else! Personally I find the notion quite pathetic.


 
Flawed (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by otak on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 04:46:06 AM PST
Why does it matter if people `point the finger and say you're an idiot'? We're discussing matters of the immortal soul, not some sort of popularity contest. Why is it important to `challenge everything in the World around you'? Will it make you more likely to pick the true religion, or is it simply so you can say `at least I made the effort' (like that'll make any difference if you're wrong). It seems to me that the article is saying that what is important in a religion is that it works for you, which is true, if you're already an atheist. If you believe in absolute truth and a real God then it doesn't matter if God doesn't `work for you' - it doesn't make him any less real or omnipotent.

In fact I would argue that challenging everything in the world around you and creating your own DIY religions will lead you to create an elaborate system of self-justification, rather than bring you any closer to God.

cheers
mike.


whose God are we talking about? (none / 0) (#8)
by Nobody on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 06:39:48 AM PST
"rather than bring you any closer to God"

Well it might not bring us any closer to YOUR God ... that is the whole point of the article. Your God was "created" by your ancestors to suit them. He was written about and preached about by mortal men; yet you are criticising people for doing the same thing now.

It seems to be an issue of tradition - i.e. the definition of God has already been established so we can't possibly challenge it!!


it doesn't matter (none / 0) (#23)
by otak on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 04:29:55 PM PST
Well it might not bring us any closer to YOUR God
I should probably have chosen a different phrase from `closer to God' - I didn't mean `closer to my God', but rather `closer to an understanding of the Divine, assuming that it exists'. Similarly, for the rest of this post you can assume that `God' expands to `God / Allah / Bazil Brush / some sort of Universal life force / The Divine / whatever'.

I'm an agnostic / atheist actually. I think all religions are pretty silly, but the idea that you can self-consciously create your own personal religion and expect it to be anything but a collection of your own foibles and desires is beyond silly and into ludicrous. It's also the wrong way round - you don't change God in response to yourself, you change yourself in response to God. Making up your own personal religion is changing God in response to yourself.
that is the whole point of the article. Your God was "created" by your ancestors to suit them. He was written about and preached about by mortal men; yet you are criticising people for doing the same thing now.
I have a problem with people cobbling together their own DIY religion, or advocating people should do the same. They seem to be admitting that we really know nothing about the truth of God, the afterlife, the meaning of the universe and so on, and then suggesting as a solution that we make stuff up.

cheers,
mike.


 
Agreed... (none / 0) (#10)
by Wiggy on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 07:00:08 AM PST
I should have put a 'none of the above (please post where it did come from)' option in there.

I think you also might want to re-read the article but replace every occurence of the word 'Religion' with the words 'Belief System' and see if that helps you understand what I was getting at. For most people who have a strong stance on Religion, their Belief System IS that stance, and so it made sense in the context of the article to talk about Religion specifically.


More options (none / 0) (#11)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 09:35:59 AM PST
I think you also could have replaced "I spent time in a sabatical thinking about it" with "I spent time thinking about it". Like many people I was raised with a religion, and found that I did not believe it when I was old enough to reflect on it, around 8. But it did not happen through education, through talking to my peers, when I reached adulthood, or during a sabatical. Similarly, some people do choose a religion after personal reflection, but not always on a sabatical.



 
"Thinking for yourself" is okay .. to a (3.00 / 2) (#12)
by seventypercent on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 09:47:19 AM PST
There are certain things that it's okay to encourage children to question critically. For example, much of modern science .. the biggest culprits being evolution and the Big Bang. In secularistivic schools children are taught these theories as facts and are not encouraged to ask tough questions about them. Evolution in particular is a shameful case; children are not taught that the theory is physically, thermodynamically, and Scripturally impossible. We would do well to teach our children to question these theories and ultimately reject them as common sense, decency, and morality require.

However, when you start to encourage children to question salvation through Christ, you are putting them in harm's way. Has it occurred to you that the reason that so many people believe in the doctrine of Christianity is because it's true? Think about it; Christianity is universally accepted by all Christian scholars. Not "a bunch" of them, or "most" of them .. all of them. Ninety percent of Western civilization believes in the divinity of Christ and salvation through accepting Him as a personal Savior. This all but proves that Christianity is true and that all other religions (past and present) are damnable heresies and their adherents are on a collision course with unimaginable torture and pain.

So in this case .. asking questions is bad. Children should be taught about Christ. In fact, many have suggested that this should be mandated by law. I can't exactly go along with this as it arguably violates the First Amendment in its current form. However, it is good policy, and it's good parenting. Telling children to forget about Christ and to go out and play around and research make-believe religions (or no religion at all) and "if it feels good, do it" is horrible parenting. It's no different than encouraging them to play Russian Roulette. Let your child's mind run free when it comes to Earthly matters, but when it comes to matters of universal truth it is our duty as parents to keep them on the straight and narrow no matter the cost.

--
Red-blooded patriots do not use Linux.

Cult mentality (3.00 / 1) (#15)
by westgeof on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 11:19:28 AM PST
Well, of course the Christian scholars support Christianity. The scholars who don't support Christianity are not called Christians.

The real reason so many people believe in Christianity is because they don't take the time to understand what they say they believe in. Rather, they are brainwashed when they're young to blindly follow something that they can't even comprehend.

And where did you find that 90% of the western world is Christian? That's just plain wrong, which only serves to hurt the rest of your argument.

I am appaled at your suggestion that the only way to be a good parent is by brainwashing your kids into believing that the bible is anything more than rank propoganda. Have you ever read it? I have, and studied it for awhile in college, and it is really beyond me why so many people devote themselves to such an obvious fabrication. It's actually pretty sad. I wouldn't want my kids believeing in something that only makes sense if it is ingrained into their heads from the minute they're born. I'll take logic anyday.

Not that I don't respect anyone's faith. I happed to disagree and pity them for it, it's simple blind faith that gets to me. If "God" created us to serve mindlessly, obeying the word of the Church without question, then why were we given the power of thought?

I just can't see myself believing in such a vicious incarnation of Evil like the Christian "God." I'd take Satan instead anyday.


As a child I wanted to know everything. Now I miss my ignorance.

Well (none / 0) (#16)
by seventypercent on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 11:47:48 AM PST
The scholars who don't support Christianity are not called Christians.

They're not scholars, either (they obviously haven't thought things through very much!)

And where did you find that 90% of the western world is Christian?

That is common knowledge. Jewish persons and atheists make up most of the rest. There are some Muslims here and there but as far as I'm concerned, they aren't worth counting. It would be nice if those people would stay on their side of the planet and blow up their own buildings, but I suppose this is the price we pay for the liberalousness of our leftivist "melting pot" immigration philosophy. (Fat lot of good it's done us.) The other Eastern "religions" (philosophies, more like it) are not even blips on the radar; they are statistically insignificant in this hemisphere. I stand by my 90% figure.

I am appaled at your suggestion that the only way to be a good parent is by brainwashing your kids into believing that the bible is anything more than rank propoganda.

It isn't my suggestion. It's God suggestion .. nay, it is God's requirement. Not teaching your children about Jesus is irresponsible. If you go further and teach them that the Bible is anything other than inerrant truth and that Jesus is not their Savior, then you have (IMHO) committed child abuse and should be put in front of a judge. If you don't believe, then fine. You are old enough to know better, and are mature enough to face the consequences of your rejection of the Lord. But children are young and impressionable and any decent society cannot allow institutionalized atheism to seize them at such a young age and destroy any and all hope for their eternal life. I realize that you probably think this is all a load of bunk, but I'm trying to explain where I'm coming from.

I just can't see myself believing in such a vicious incarnation of Evil like the Christian "God." I'd take Satan instead anyday.

You're a grownup; it's your decision, your rejection, your eternity, and your torture. Just please don't claim that you should be allowed to teach this nonsense to your children in a decent society.

--
Red-blooded patriots do not use Linux.

I hope you're joking (none / 0) (#17)
by westgeof on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 12:36:42 PM PST
They're not scholars, either (they obviously haven't thought things through very much!)

So, someone who puts stock in studying facts and analyzing real data as opposed to just pulling ideas out of a fictional book is not a scholar?

There are some Muslims here and there but as far as I'm concerned, they aren't worth counting.

Moslems make up the second most populous religion. I certainly wouldn't call that not worth counting. (Atheists/ Agnostics are a very close third.)

It would be nice if those people would stay on their side of the planet and blow up their own buildings

So you don't love your neighbor and refuse to turn the other cheek? What would Jesus think? I guess you're going to hell.
And for the record, that is your side of the planet too. Christians came from the middle east, so why don't you stay on your side of the planet and stick with your crusades and inquisitions and holocausts. It's not as flashy as blowing up a building, but I bet you could learn.

But children are young and impressionable and any decent society cannot allow institutionalized atheism to seize them at such a young age and destroy any and all hope for their eternal life.

But it's ok for institutionalized religion to sieze a young and impressionable child and destroy all hope for rational thought? If you have to be convinced of something when you are young and impressionable, then does that really sound like something that you should learn? How can you be so determined to believe something that connot be convinced rationally, but must insted be forced on someone who doesn't know better?

[I]t's your decision, your rejection, your eternity, and your torture

I couldn't agree more. It's my decision. I was not forced to believe in God when I was a child, and so my ares are open. I was able to look at the evidence both for and against religion, and I have yet to find one that is even slightly credible. When the eveidence for something stacks up to the order of about a million to one, I'm hardly going to take my chances with the one. Granted, there are times when I wish I could believe in something like God, I'm not going to go into it blindly.

Just please don't claim that you should be allowed to teach this nonsense to your children in a decent society.

This is exactly how I feel about religion. When I have Children, I won't lie to them. I won't force them to attend church, but I won't forbid it either. I will give them the freedom to weigh the evidence for themselves and make their own decision. Only aa dictator asks for complete submission without cause.

(For the record, I still haven't found anything to support or refute your claim that 90% of the western world is Christian. I did find a site saying the 80% of the US is christian, and that about 30% of the entire world is Christian, but nothing more specific.)


As a child I wanted to know everything. Now I miss my ignorance.

You are a fool. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by nx01 on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 01:33:31 PM PST
So, someone who puts stock in studying facts and analyzing real data as opposed to just pulling ideas out of a fictional book is not a scholar?

Of course not. A scholar is one who considers all sources, and thinks enough to realize that scientific "facts" are really nothing more than the best theories we have at the present. In addition, a true scholar takes a closer look at the Bible that most so-called scientists and realizes that inside it are real, immutable truths.

Moslems make up the second most populous religion. I certainly wouldn't call that not worth counting. (Atheists/ Agnostics are a very close third.)

Maybe so, but as far as America is concerned it's just a tiny minority. Therefore, it's not really worth counting in the western world (the United States).

So you don't love your neighbor and refuse to turn the other cheek? What would Jesus think? I guess you're going to hell. And for the record, that is your side of the planet too. Christians came from the middle east, so why don't you stay on your side of the planet and stick with your crusades and inquisitions and holocausts. It's not as flashy as blowing up a building, but I bet you could learn.

Loving your neighbor is not the point. Preventing them from going to hell is. As for your claim that Christianity is just a middle-eastern religion, Caeser changed all of that when he made it the Roman state religion. And as for your insinuation that the holocaust was a Christian institution, I'm not even going to dignify it with an answer. However, I would caution you against "trolling" like that, since it isn't looked upon well here.

But it's ok for institutionalized religion to sieze a young and impressionable child and destroy all hope for rational thought? If you have to be convinced of something when you are young and impressionable, then does that really sound like something that you should learn? How can you be so determined to believe something that connot be convinced rationally, but must insted be forced on someone who doesn't know better?

Are you serious? If you have to be convinced of something, it isn't worth knowing? Perhaps we should throw out our knowledge of mathematics, quantum physics, and the entire dicipline of psychology--they're all things you have to be convinced of! And if you claim that we rationally understand those, I'd have to wonder who do you think you are? Most rational people I know understand that we know next to nothing about the true nature of the universe! All we really have to go on is the Love of God.

I couldn't agree more. It's my decision. I was not forced to believe in God when I was a child, and so my ares are open. I was able to look at the evidence both for and against religion, and I have yet to find one that is even slightly credible. When the eveidence for something stacks up to the order of about a million to one, I'm hardly going to take my chances with the one. Granted, there are times when I wish I could believe in something like God, I'm not going to go into it blindly.

Ever heard of Pascal's Wager, O Great Arrogant One?

This is exactly how I feel about religion. When I have Children, I won't lie to them. I won't force them to attend church, but I won't forbid it either. I will give them the freedom to weigh the evidence for themselves and make their own decision. Only a dictator asks for complete submission without cause.

So let's not bother socializing them at all. Yes, let them run wild, not introducing them to the Ethical Code! They will end up being nothing but feral animals with only their sensous desires to live for, but so be it! It's the Compassionate Thing to Do!

People like you make me sick. I can't believe we, as a civilized society, allow you to procreate.


"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Good grief! (none / 0) (#20)
by Seithman on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 01:44:24 PM PST
"Maybe so, but as far as America is concerned it's just a tiny minority. Therefore, it's not really worth counting in the western world (the United States)."

-- Perhaps you need to first realize that there is more to the western world than the U.S. Or at least have the decency to try to hide your sense of cultural superiority and the arrogance it breeds.

"Loving your neighbor is not the point. Preventing them from going to hell is."

Funny. I recall Jesus saying "love your neighbor" a couple of times. I never once heard him say "keep them from going to hell." Perhaps you should consider how closely you're following him.

"Ever heard of Pascal's Wager, O Great Arrogant One?"

Yep. Ever hear that Pascal gave one of the the lamest reasons for believing in Christianity. Gee, the Muslims believe that all other religions are unsaved and will be punished as well. Perhaps I should start praying to Allah on top of asking Jesus into my heart? Oh, but wait, what about what the Jews believe? At least I'm already circumcized. Will that cover me there? Just how many gods do you recommend we appease "just in case"?

"Yes, let them run wild, not introducing them to the Ethical Code!"

Funny, I've been able to teach ethics for years without resorting to religion. Perhaps you need to re-examine your base assumptions here.

"People like you make me sick. I can't believe we, as a civilized society, allow you to procreate."

Wow. I cannot begin to believe you said this. Oh wait, yes I can. So much for the "love of Christ." Good thing I know what "real Christians" are supposed to act like.



Time to "enlighten" one more liberal. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by nx01 on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 02:00:55 PM PST
Perhaps you need to first realize that there is more to the western world than the U.S. Or at least have the decency to try to hide your sense of cultural superiority and the arrogance it breeds.

There may be more than one western country, but the rest honestly don't count. It's not like you see european culture being gobbled up by your average US citizen, do you? Or, for that matter, Europeans (how else do we account for the global popularity of McDonalds)? It's not superiority, it's reality.

Funny. I recall Jesus saying "love your neighbor" a couple of times. I never once heard him say "keep them from going to hell." Perhaps you should consider how closely you're following him. Perhaps you should re-check your assumptions and read about The Great Commission.

Yep. Ever hear that Pascal gave one of the the lamest reasons for believing in Christianity. Gee, the Muslims believe that all other religions are unsaved and will be punished as well. Perhaps I should start praying to Allah on top of asking Jesus into my heart? Oh, but wait, what about what the Jews believe? At least I'm already circumcized. Will that cover me there? Just how many gods do you recommend we appease "just in case"?

Please. In your heart, you know it's the Truth. And at least I'm trying to cram some wishy-washy "neo-pagan" bullshit down your throat. Be thankful for that.

Funny, I've been able to teach ethics for years without resorting to religion. Perhaps you need to re-examine your base assumptions here.

Yes, but the underlying metaphysics that give those ethics their power is all from God. Even Socrates admitted that in his last hours.

Wow. I cannot begin to believe you said this. Oh wait, yes I can. So much for the "love of Christ." Good thing I know what "real Christians" are supposed to act like.

Great. Resort to an ad-homenim attack. That's a good idea. I'm not going to reply any further in this thread--I don't want to sink down any further. Goodbye.


"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Nowhere left to sink (none / 0) (#27)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 09:20:42 AM PST
nx01, just listen to yourself. If someone else was beating their chest the way you are, methinks you would be critical too. And rightfully so.

Your words boil down to "I am right, you are wrong, and I will not prove either claim."

Finally, your hypocracy concerning ad hominems is quite telling:
"People like you make me sick. I can't believe we, as a civilized society, allow you to procreate."

Again, nx01, I say just listen to yourself.

Goodbye indeed.


 
Reply from a fool (none / 0) (#30)
by westgeof on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 02:39:54 PM PST
A scholar is one who considers all sources, and thinks enough to realize that scientific "facts" are really nothing more than the best theories we have at the present.

Once again, I couldn't agree more. Scientific facts are the best theories we have. Certainly better than any conjecture or speculation you may pluck from the bible.

[I]nside [the Bible] are real, immutable truths.

That's a pretty lofty claim there. Do you have any evidence to back that up? I hope you're basing it on more than fairy tales told to you as a kid. Please, I would love to some some real proof for your stance. I would gladly admit that I am wrong if you can somehow prove that you are right. (I won't accept "Just because." That one only works on children.)

Therefore, it's not really worth counting in the western world (the United States).

Whoa! That's certainly a new one. The Western World is NOT just the US. Are you an American? Try looking at a map.

Loving your neighbor is not the point. Preventing them from going to hell is.

Uh, did you ever read the bible? Loving your neighbor was the most important part of Jesus's message. Now, I admit that that's only in the New Testament, so maybe you haven't gotten that far yet, but I'd be carefull what you say. It doesn't look so good when an 'infidel' knows more about your religion than you do. (For the record, I guess the reason I did reject religion is because I know too much about it.)
And it's not your job to keep other's from going to hell. That's between me and God, whatever He may be.

As for your claim that Christianity is just a middle-eastern religion

Christianity (along with it's predecessor, Judaism,) originated in the middle east. That's a fact, pure and simple. If you live in America, that does not mean that Christianity is an American concept. In fact, about 68% of Christians live in the Eastern hemisphere. The Pope lives over there too. (For the record, I do know that he's Catholic and that not all Christians are Catholic.)

And as for your insinuation that the holocaust was a Christian institution

I didn't say it was a Christian institution, just that it was performed by Christians, just as those bombings you mentioned were performed by moslems. I was just pointing out that you lived in a glass house and shouldn't be throwing stones.

I would caution you against "trolling"

Well, I appreciate your concern, and in return urge you to look up the definition of trolling. All I'm doing is trying to hold a rational debate with someone who refuses to be rational.

If you have to be convinced of something, it isn't worth knowing?

Oops, looks like I wasn't too clear that. What I was trying to say there was that if something can only be convinced to a child, meaning that only someone who was easily impressionable would believe it, then it doesn't sound like something I'd want to believe. (Do you believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy? Kids do, but they are usually told better while still impresionable. Is that child abuse?)

Most rational people I know understand that we know next to nothing about the true nature of the universe!

As do I, but I learned more about the universe from studying physics and mathematics than I did from reading the bible. If I don't know how something works, though, I don't attribute it to Magic, or God.

Ever heard of Pascal's Wager

Yes, I have. Are you saying that I should say I believe in God "just in case?" I can't simply believe something is true or not by choice. I can say I believe in God, but I simply cannot believe unless I am given some kind of proof. Since all the evidence I've seen goes against Christianity, I'd have to be a fool to believe it.

O Great Arrogant One

Ok, be nice now. Refusing to believe something because all the evidence points away from it is hardly arrogance. Saying "I'm right and you're wrong, because I said so," on the other hand, does sound a bit arrogant. But that's just my opinion.

Yes, let them run wild, not introducing them to the Ethical Code! They will end up being nothing but feral animals with only their sensous desires to live for, but so be it!

So you think that Ethics and Religion are mutually exclusive? You've certainly got a lot to learn. Have you ever studied history? Countless atrocities thoughout history have been commited in the name of Religion. Even today in the middle east, the birthplace of Christianity, Judaism, and Moslem, people fight over religion. Some of the nicest people I know are atheists or agnostics, while some of the most hatefull people I've ever met go to church every sunday. I would say that's a fluke, but I've heard the same from many people from all over. Go figure.

People like you make me sick. I can't believe we, as a civilized society, allow you to procreate.

So instead of presenting even one valid argument you're just going to resort to name calling? I find that depressing. I almost miss my time studying in college, because at least there I could find someone willing to at least try. (I'm still glad I changed my major to something more practical though!)


As a child I wanted to know everything. Now I miss my ignorance.

 
You would do better to research your history (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Aug 31st, 2001 at 02:26:25 PM PST
You are in error, it was Emperor Constantinewho established Christianity as the officel religion of Rome. "Before the battle at the Milvian or Mulvian Bridge near Rome in 312, Constantine, who was already sympathetic toward Christianity, is said to have seen in the sky a flaming cross as the sign by which he would conquer. He adopted the cross and was victorious." This can be validated by www.historychannel.com.

Casear is commonly thought to be the Great Emperor to bring Christianity to the Roman Empire. This is just false. Casear was the first Emperor of Rome, not necessarly the same as the first Christian Emperor of Rome. Dante's Inferno makes the same mistake.

Preventing them from going to hell is. As for your claim that Christianity is just a middle-eastern religion, Caeser changed all of that when he made it the Roman state religion.



 
Funky way of thinking (none / 0) (#39)
by botono9 on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 09:19:25 AM PST
A scholar is one who considers all sources, and thinks enough to realize that scientific "facts" are really nothing more than the best theories we have at the present. In addition, a true scholar takes a closer look at the Bible that most so-called scientists and realizes that inside it are real, immutable truths.
So a "scholar" (I have to use quotes because you are redefining the term) is someone who questions scientific "facts" but takes the Bible as "truth" at face value? So basically only Christians can become these new "scholars" and anyone who does not believe the Bible is the direct word of god is what, a heretic?

I think god would want us to question its authority, because if it is really the all-powerful being it claims to be then the evidence would point to that and we could all worship secure in the knowledge that we found the "real thing". If god didn't want us to question it, it wouldn't have given us free will (as the Bible says).


"Free will" is not found in the Bible (none / 0) (#40)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 11:10:11 AM PST
"Free will" is an invention of embarassed Christian apologists who somehow had to come up with an explanation for all of the evil in the world. It is not based, in whole or in part, on anything in the Bible. In fact, the Bible says pretty much the opposite .. that free will does not exist (there are phrases in the Old Testament that talk about people being clay in the Christian god's hands, etc.)

If you can produce a solid Biblical justification for "free will", you will be the first apologist to have done so.


 
Yeah right! (none / 0) (#19)
by Seithman on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 01:35:24 PM PST
"Has it occurred to you that the reason that so many people believe in the doctrine of Christianity is because it's true?"

Oh, I love this logic! Let's take it a bit further:

Has it occurred to you that the reason that so many people believe the sun revolves around the earth is because it's true?

Has it occurred to you that the reason that so many people believe that black people are inferior to white people is because it's true?

Has it occurred to you that the reason that so many people believe that Mikey died from eating Pop Rocks and Drinking Coke is because it's true?

As a Christian, you should know that majority belief doesn't dictate Truth.

You'll forgive me if I don't even bother reading the rest of your message. IF this is your idea of sound logic, I'd rather go watch children's programming on television -- which I hate!


 
What planet are you on? (1.00 / 1) (#26)
by Wiggy on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 02:18:37 AM PST
Evolution in particular is a shameful case; children are not taught that the theory is physically, thermodynamically, and Scripturally impossible. We would do well to teach our children to question these theories and ultimately reject them as common sense, decency, and morality require.

Ahhh... you're one of those are you? OK, let me try and explain something to you about evolution. It's a proven hypothesis. Evolution and the Big Bang are not concepts that some guy thought up and just said 'right, that's the way it is' (like Religion does), but sat down created an experiment to determine as to whether there is any basis in fact, performed the experiment and analysed the results and produced a paper for peer review. Perhaps you should write an article on how evolution is physically and thermodynamically impossible. I don't care about Scripture as it was written by idiots like you.

Ninety percent of Western civilization believes in the divinity of Christ and salvation through accepting Him as a personal Savior

I have some news for you. There are vast swathes of Western civilization that aren't Christian. I think the figure '90%' needs to be dropped to about '45-50%'. At most. Oh, and in addition, Islam will be the world's largest Religion within about 5-6 years. Imagine that.

Let your child's mind run free when it comes to Earthly matters, but when it comes to matters of universal truth it is our duty as parents to keep them on the straight and narrow no matter the cost.

'no matter the cost'. That's an interesting phrase. Do you think I should be killed for suggesting children should think for themselves? Or rather, when they become adults that they should step back and think for themselves... How about killing everybody who doesn't conform to your Religion? That will keep them on the 'straight and narrow'. What a wonderful idea.

I have to say, after having read your posts I've come to the conclusion you're either trolling, or incredibly stupid. And facist to boot.


Really? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Aug 31st, 2001 at 12:00:09 AM PST
<i>OK, let me try and explain something to you about evolution. Evolution and the Big Bang are not concepts that some guy thought up and just said 'right, that's the way it is' (like Religion does), but sat down created an experiment to determine as to whether there is any basis in fact, performed the experiment and analysed the results and produced a paper for peer review.</i>
<p>
Umm, which experiments were those exactly? And how is it a "proven hypothesis?"


 
Circular Logic, yes? (none / 0) (#46)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Mar 29th, 2002 at 02:51:12 PM PST
"Think about it; Christianity is universally accepted by all Christian scholars."

Funny that, isn't it? I'd never have guessed that people with a religious persuasion would accept their own religion.


 
No. (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 10:18:04 AM PST
We learn our native tongue as a child from those around us, and from then on all the language we use is composed of the words we have been taught within a given context previously, placed in a different order

Nope. Chomsky has taught us that language is inherently creative-- any normal person creates sentences that she's never heard before, and people interpret them correctly. Since language is inherently creative, and every normal (e.g. not having some medical defect) human being possesses language, it follows that every human being is creative, contrary to the "point" you are trying to make.


 
atheist (none / 0) (#14)
by alprazolam on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 11:08:27 AM PST
i was brought up with no particular religion being spoon fed to me. my parents were both at one time religious to a degree (muslim and christian) but decided to let me make my own choices. i did read the bible and attend a few christian services before i decided it was bunk. i studied (just a little) the historical evolution of islam before deciding that all religion and social custom is made up by people who want to control. taoism, hinduism, buddhism all seem to have obvious failings, where atheism doesn't. a secular worldview in which there is no divine creator/omnipotent being is really the only rational way to understand the world and the 'meaning of life'.


Hmm... (5.00 / 2) (#22)
by manifold on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 03:59:59 PM PST
Did you throw off the shackles of capital letters at the same time?




you racist pig (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by alprazolam on Wed Aug 29th, 2001 at 06:11:26 PM PST
i was born without a left finger and can't capitalize letters because of my horrible disfigurement. are you some kind of insensitive anti-handicapped monster?


Left finger? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
by manifold on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 02:07:40 AM PST
Which left finger would that be?




Maybe... (none / 0) (#28)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 09:24:47 AM PST
it's the left finger he would normally use to depress the shift key on the right side of the keyboard?


So he can't use his right hand? (none / 0) (#29)
by greyrat on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 10:27:32 AM PST
Well -- excepting the obvious punchline -- that must mean he's left handed.

Burn him as a witch!


 
For sure. Religions are large scale trolls (5.00 / 5) (#41)
by dmg on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 11:12:59 AM PST
all religion and social custom is made up by people who want to control

I remember becoming an atheist when I went to school (a state run school in the UK) and in the assembly hall realising that I didn't believe a word of the religious service. It was quite strange at first, but being a fairly secure child, I never lied about it, or pretended to believe it. How could I ? My own parents were atheists and they wouldn't lie to me :-)

My only regret is that my parents would not write a letter to the school to excuse me from the publicly funded indoctrination that was going on.

As a young atheist, I was quite smug about it, looking at all the adults who were stupid enough to believe all that rubbish in holy books, believing in it like the tooth fairy or santa claus. As a five year old child, there was more hard evidence for the existance of santa claus than there was for the Christian God. Parents encouraging their kids to believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy are equipping them with an practical lesson in religios faith which should turn them athiest the moment they find out the truth

Later in life I realised that the spirit of the dominant religion colours our behaviour, even down to our sense of right or wrong. I began to realise with some degree of concern that although I was an atheist, culturally I was a Christian. In the sense that my ideas of what are right and wrong come from a Christian perspective (forgiveness, not coveting my neigbours ass etc). I now make a point of questioning whether I really think something is right or wrong, or whether it is the 'stealth christian' implanted in me by the state that is dictating my behaviour.

Later it became clear that you cannot tell someone what is right or wrong without some sort of authority, since they will just disagree with you, with an equal amount of authority. A 'divine' character must be invented who is 'better' than you and who you will therefore listen to without such a questioning attitude.

Its most disturbing that as atheists we live in this bizarre world where decisions are taken by people who profess to believe in all kinds of improbable deities. Its like living life inside an enormous slashdot troll with millions of biters on all sides of the argument and only a very small select group of people who have actually thought it through for themselves. I am grateful to my grandfather for having the balls and guts to give up Catholicism so that I didn't have to become one. Atheists sometimes do not realise how lucky they are to be unencumbered by 1000s of years of 'we've always done it like this' and 'because god said so, shut up' etc etc.

You also are misguided in denying the existance of an omnipotent being. Its entirely conceivable that we are the creation of a superior intelligence. This is philosophically and practically possible. The 'digital' nature of DNA should give us some cause for speculation. However should such an ompnipotent being exist, it just removes the question one step further back: Who created the omnipotent being ? Does it have to follow some religion ? If not, why not ?Is there any reason to suppose we are capable of understanding it any more than a fish in a goldfish bowl understands how it got there ?

Religions are just sets of rules (like political systems) which attempt to control people's behaviour. It may not be a bad thing. Some people's behaviour needs controlling. The problem I have with it is the circular nature of the arguments and the sheer arrogance on display.
  • Religious person: "Don't murder people you'll go to Hell."
  • Me: "But I don't believe in Hell. Does that mean its OK for me to murder people ?"

    Its a kind of bootstrap problem. Before I can start behaving in a Christian way, which I should because God will punish me if I don't, I first have to start believing in it. But if I start believing in this God it might start to punish me. So I am better off not believing in it. The arrogance is in the assumption that without Christianity I would go around murdering people at random. Fact is, it is the threat of sanction from society, in the here-and-now that deters most criminals. Not the wrath of a maybe-existant God.

    Most western religions claim to be the one true religion. This files in the face of the facts. They all try to gloss over their holy books when they talk about slaughtering the unbelievers or whatever.

    For a good look at the results of taking religion too seriously you only need to look at Afghanistan, Ireland, The former Yugoslavia, The Sudan, and the Middle East. The arguments there are not complex, and despite all the talk of peace "processes" they will not ever be solved, since the argument boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong, because your God is not real and mine is".

    I think the Bible is a huge troll on the world, with millions and millions of biters on both sides of the argument. Unlike slashdot trolls however, this level of trolling must be taken seriously due to the amount of power and influence wielded by the believers. Like it or not, religious people are determining your atheist future, and a troll is still a troll, even if it is thousands of years old and has millions of people who think it is true. It is very much an 'Emperor's new clothes' situation.

    Having said all that, I don't think we should get too worried by the religious people. For the most part what they do is harmless. In many cases what they do is actually good for mankind, and the vast majority of religious people take their religious rules seriously but not too seriously.

    Nowhere is this state of affairs more advanced than in the United Kingdom, where despite having an official state religion, most people go to church on only three occasions: Christenings, weddings, and funerals even though according to surveys around 80-90% of them believe in some sort of supreme being.

    Don't assume that the religious leaders clergy, preachers are entierly to blame for this state of affairs. After all, if slashdot didn't have such a huge number of biters, it would be hard to troll them. The slashdot biter, like the religious man, has faith. He has faith that the troll he is responding to is actually the real opinion of someone. He feels that his contribution to the discussion (however ill-advised) is positive. He feels he can make a difference. He is, unfortunately wrong.

    The Eastern religions are not necessarily as theistic as you might think, many of them have a more philosophical approach.

    If you have not read them already, there are a couple of books that atheists and realists might enjoy. They contain a lot of insight into why humans are the way they are. So without further ado, I present adequacy.org's required reading list for September 2001. Study carefully. There will be a test.

  • Nicolai Machiavelli's The Prince
  • Sun Tzu's The Art of War
  • Luke Rhinehart's The Dice Man
  • Robert M Pirsig's Lila - An Enquiry Into Morals
  • Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels,

    time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
    -- MC Hawking

  • thought provoking and intelligent post (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by alprazolam on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 02:27:19 PM PST
    the parent, not this one. thanks for taking the time dmg, i appreciate it.

    You also are misguided in denying the existance of an omnipotent being. Its entirely conceivable that we are the creation of a superior intelligence. This is philosophically and practically possible.

    Although it is possible (unlikely however) that there was some sort of intelligent design, there is no reason to believe that the designer is omnipotent. Speaking of taking religion too seriously, how about a group of people who've used it as a cover for overt racism, genocide, and theft. Even the Taliban don't take non-Muslim's homes away.

    As far as books, I'll have to check out the last 3, which I haven't had a chance to get to yet. I was amused by "The Tao of Pooh" though, I'd recommend it as bathroom reading or for some light reading when you're in a foul mood.


    The Taliban (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by finn on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 02:54:30 PM PST
    "Even the Taliban don't take non-Muslim's homes away."
    BBC News article
    "A ruling earlier this year said that Afghan Muslims converting to another religion would be sentenced to death."
    The Taliban just kill you...
    ----------

    right (none / 0) (#45)
    by alprazolam on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 06:23:13 PM PST
    you actually have to commit a "crime" to be killed there.


     
    "I rejected religion when I became an adult&q (none / 0) (#32)
    by cowdeth on Thu Aug 30th, 2001 at 11:42:52 PM PST
    As per my choice, I don't like to really believe in religion of any sort. However, I'm also (gasp!) not an adult. Why am I here, then? Because this site provides a really different point of view, and such...it's fun, almost...even if I disagree (re the whole dungeons and dragons dispute a while back) it's great to see other people's views and then understand so you can have a better view of the subject, possibly change your own views, etc...


     
    Bible Study. (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Sep 4th, 2001 at 12:53:59 AM PST
    One thing I would like to note is that it would be a really good thing for people to read the bible. A lot of people go around telling others that they will go to hell. The fact is, there is no hell. If you read the bible, you will find out that nobody is going to hell. You are only going to be saved, or you are not going to be saved. You will live or you will die. Thats it.

    Oh, one last thing.... Watch out when you read the bible. If you really read it, you will believe.


    Um. (2.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Sep 4th, 2001 at 01:27:36 AM PST
    Rev 20:9

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


     
    No Hell? Read your Bible carefully... (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Sep 4th, 2001 at 09:31:05 PM PST
    And look at Luke 16:19-31 and explain your assertion that there is no hell. And Matthew 5:22. There are tons of verses, those two just occur off the top of my head.


     
    But... (2.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Sep 4th, 2001 at 09:34:43 PM PST
    I see that some comments posted here are from someone who appears a bit off-base on what Christianity is. It's not about judging others, nor about the behavior of Christians, it's about Christ. It's not about what we have to do or not do; it's about acknowledging that we are all sinners (Christians are by no means exempt from that statement), and that being sinners, we need salvation. Christians are those who have accepted God's free gift of salvation, others (and Christians before they accepted) are not. It's certainly not about organized, denominational religion; Christ's highest condemnation was reserved for those who were the hypocrites in the theocracy.

    Unlike teachings by the Catholics, that you must perform works to retain your salvation, the Bible teaches the exact opposite - works-based salvation is anathema. After all, the thief on the cross next to Christ's merely expressed belief in him, and our saviour responded "I will see you today in Paradise". There were no works the thief could perform hanging there, hours from death. No last rights. No trip to Purgatory (a completely invented issue, not scriptural at all). Yet he was assured of salvation and Heaven merely by accepting the gift.

    If you are curious, interested, or want to know more, I recommend the
    site http://www.greatcom.org/laws/english/flash/ as a starting point.


     
    Nit-picking (none / 0) (#44)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Sep 5th, 2001 at 05:24:19 PM PST
    You mention that language is essentially a product of our environment... then how do you explain "bling bling". ;)

    I think your point was missed though. Or wrong. (?) Personally I think that every religion (at least as far as the major religion structures go) is based on belief, which you cannot and are not supposed to get from someone else. The churches may say differently, but in all of the texts that they claim to build their foundations on, it says different - even in the translations. The Koran, the Bible, Confucious, Judaism, Hindu's, you name it. You must discover it for yourself if it is to mean anything, and in that meaning you discover your purpose (or at least what you come to believe is your purpose).
    I think your pretty close on how religion came about in the first place, but I also think there are ways of looking at things from a religious (read higher power) point of view that offers unique insights that you won't get from traditional science (as scientific evidence, I point your attention to the medical field which gets closer to endorsing traditional medicines every day. Unless of course your a drug company...).

    By the way, I have a fear that people will think I'm a bible thumper. I'm really not. I just think people should really investigate what they believe rather than obsess over things they don't believe (I.E. your religion is wrong, all religion is wrong, my religion is wrong, etc.).

    My slightly off kilter mother in law (read not crazy enough to commit ;) studies religion, and picked one that leaves room for aliens. And being interested in the cosmos (like I said...) she told me a story she read about an abductee who had a conversation with said aliens. They find it odd that more people don't believe in God, because they claim the inspiration from said being is how they achieved their technological advances. I'll admit, she's a little wacked, but the Pope would have a hard time keeping up with her knowledge of religion - and that's no joke. She's smart. And still isn't sure she's got it right.

    Ctimes2


     

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