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Poll
Libertarians are corrupt because
They are simply hackers who use deodorant. 30%
Have to steal their ideas from others. 50%
Have no respect for social morality. 20%

Votes: 10

 Libertarian corruption

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Apr 12, 2002
 Comments:
It appears that the Libertarian Party has come out in favour of corruption in public life.
diaries

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Far from supporting moves calling a halt on buying influence in public life, Libertarians are going to court to overturn the Shays-Meehan campaign finance reform bill. The justification for doing so appears to be twofold:
  1. that most of their supporters are children.
  2. that despite their immense electorial successes they haven't got much influence to sell.
Frankly its bit much to go to court to argue that because you can't con much money out of kids allowances its alright to corrupt state officials.

Finally a quote from some dead guy:

Far from advocating a "minimal state", we find it unquestionable that in an advanced society government ought to use its power of raising funds by taxation to provide a number of services which for various reasons cannot be provided or cannot be provided adequately by the market.
Hayek, "Law, Legislation, and Liberty" 1982


Yawn. (none / 0) (#1)
by tkatchev on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 12:19:07 AM PST
Liberalism is as old as the moon. I bet even in caveman times they argued about campaign financing reform.


--
Peace and much love...

Buzz, buzzzz, beep, beep, buzzz (none / 0) (#2)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 07:22:49 AM PST
"This is your 6am alarm call."

The year is 2002 and in most civilised societies corruption in civil life is frowned upon.

Would you rather I discussed corruption in the Church? Perhaps not as that is pretty old news too.


So? (none / 0) (#3)
by tkatchev on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 07:26:51 AM PST
There are a million and a half things "frowned upon in civilized society" that are nevertheless practised routinely. Campaign financing is not even in the top ten list of these things, so I don't really see the point of your diary.

Thanks for the info, though.


--
Peace and much love...

In some places (none / 0) (#7)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:19:18 AM PST
where bribing officials is a way of life that may be true.

I'll accept that if you are constantly concerned that your wages might not arrive, then corruption of politicians may not be your first concern. However, you might also consider that if the rapacity of officials was contained the money might be there to pay your wages.


Wages? (none / 0) (#8)
by tkatchev on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:32:06 AM PST
It would be nice if you had a clue before flaming; like any able-bodied person, I do not work for a government agency. Government agencies only exist to support people who would be left without a job otherwise.

There is a difference between getting paid a "wage" simply as a replacement of unemployment dole, and getting paid for constructive, professional work.


--
Peace and much love...

One and you (none / 0) (#15)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 01:25:02 PM PST
Maybe one should use 'one' in instead of 'you' when refering to the indefinate, but one really does not want to sound like one's Queen.

You, on the other hand, should not be so vain as to assume that you always means you.


 
Let me guess ... (none / 0) (#4)
by Ben Reid on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 07:45:09 AM PST
You did a quick google search for "corruption russian orthodox church" and picked results 1 and 7 :)

Of course... (none / 0) (#9)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:36:38 AM PST
...I don't keep thousands of web links in my head.

But having a Russian visitor coming in a few weeks time, I've put all the Marx and Lenin books up in the attic along with my autographed photos of Brezhnev and Andropov. And I've also taken the trouble to research current affairs in Russia so that I don't inadvertantly insult my guest by talking about controversial subjects.

Now I was thinking about asking on this site for any pointers but finally decided that there probably wasn't much that any one here could tell me.

Current advice BTW is show him around a few castles, some 16th century hostelries, and take him to some western restuarants a step up from McDonalds.


"Western Restaurants"? (none / 0) (#10)
by tkatchev on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:42:18 AM PST
Get a clue, what do you think -- your visitor climbed down from a tree just yesterday?

Oh, the provincialism...


--
Peace and much love...

So what do you suggest. (none / 0) (#12)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:58:17 AM PST
This is a first time visitor from Irkutsk. I really don't want to mess up.


Don't worry. (none / 0) (#13)
by tkatchev on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 11:04:39 AM PST
You won't mess up unless you rear the ugly head of nationalistic chauvinism.

(See the posts by "dmg", for example.)


--
Peace and much love...

 
Just make sure (none / 0) (#11)
by dmg on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:47:27 AM PST
that you hide the booze.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

I am advised (none / 0) (#14)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 12:30:04 PM PST
to get in ale, and not spirits. On the grounds that three pints is about the normal Russian limit.


 
Corruption Frowned Upon? (none / 0) (#5)
by gzt on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 09:32:08 AM PST
Walwyn said, "The year is 2002 and in most civilised societies corruption in civil life is frowned upon."

I'm sure that sounds good to you and all that jazz, but is it really true? It's a way of life in Southern Europe, for instance.

I think you meant to say, "Neither I nor the people in my immediate vicinity approve of corruption in civil life."

It may well be so (none / 0) (#6)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:06:40 AM PST
but in Southern Europe there are attempts to eradicate the practice and bring those responsible to book.

You'll find that few societies, even those where corruption is rife, celebrate the situation.

You don't get, for example the mafia, going to court to argue that it is ok to bribe city mayors.

Yeah, right. (none / 0) (#16)
by gzt on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 05:33:09 PM PST
Walwyn says, "... [B]ut in Southern Europe there are attempts to eradicate the practice and bring those responsible to book."

Riiight. Whatever thrills you, dude. You may not have the mafia going to court to argue it's okay to bribe mayors. But you do have normal, everyday bribes as part of the everyday operation of local government. You also have corporate pay-offs and the like which, when revealed and proven, are shrugged off by the public.

First, though, what do we mean by civilised societies (referencing the original post)?

Really (none / 0) (#17)
by walwyn on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 07:12:08 PM PST
You also have corporate pay-offs and the like which, when revealed and proven, are shrugged off by the public.

And where would that be?

First, though, what do we mean by civilised societies

In the context of the post - those societies that operate under the 'Rule of law'.

Then I'm Afraid I Lose by Definition. (none / 0) (#18)
by gzt on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 08:53:02 PM PST
"In the context of the post - those societies that operate under the 'Rule of law'."

You win, any society where corruption is ignored doesn't operate under the 'Rule of law' and therefore is uncivilised. Good game.

Cheers,
GZ

Rule of law (none / 0) (#19)
by The Mad Scientist on Sat Apr 13th, 2002 at 10:39:30 PM PST
What if corruption isn't even mentioned in given society's law?

More generally, what if the law is diametrally different to what we are considering "civilized"? Taliban was enforcing a rule of law, should it be considered civilized then?

Financing of political parties is (often legal) form of corruption as well. It is practiced in most of countries. Should it be considered civilized?

Or is the Rule Of Law less meaningful criterium than it is cracked to be?


Criterion. (none / 0) (#20)
by hauntedattics on Sun Apr 14th, 2002 at 07:33:17 AM PST
Or is the Rule Of Law [a] less meaningful criterium than it is cracked [up] to be?

Not any less meaningful than peer review.

 
Lets see. (none / 0) (#21)
by walwyn on Sun Apr 14th, 2002 at 10:11:51 AM PST
There are a number of views on the what constitutes the rule of law and is entirely possible to have a system where the rule of law is very different from that of a western democracy. I doubt, however, that there are many such systems which outwardly condone the buying and selling of influence by legislators.

There are of course states that are run as personal fiefdoms where corruption is endemic and little is done to stop it by the government. In such states you will normally find other abuses, such as human rights violations, election rigging, and where 'law' is used as a personal weapon in the hands of the rulers.

Whether we call such societies 'civilised' or not may be a matter of judgement but it is not a one that I'm afraid to make.

There are a number of rules in most democracies concerning campaign financing, which have arisen due to concern that big financial donors may gain undue influence over the legislature.

The current concern is over loopholes in 'soft money' donations which the 'campaign finance reform bill' seeks to address. The Libertarian Party seeks to overturn this legislation on the grounds that third parties only get elected to local positions not federal. In other words its ok to bribe mayors.


 
indeed (none / 0) (#22)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Apr 14th, 2002 at 10:38:24 AM PST
in Southern Europe there are attempts to eradicate the practice and bring those responsible to book

Those countries have a Rule of Law (everyone is treated equally under the law on the occasions the law is enforced) and a Strongly Suggested Motorized Vehicule Protocol.

 

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